You know what I believe. Feel free to post what you believe.
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Rodger Tutt
 Oct 8, 07 - 6:23 AM |
Why I went from a Bible college student to Christian Universalist
Accepting your invitation to post what I beleive. The people who want to keep believing that the Bible proves that everyone deserves to suffer forever in hell just because they were born into this world, or because they don’t make the “right” choice before it’s “too late,” or that God created beings with a will so strong that they can irreversibly choose themselves into a state of eternal torment - these people will keep believing it because they want to. But people who want to believe that the Bible nowhere supports such a concept of God will examine the evidence contained in HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE at http://concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/index.html And also here Information, and frequently asked questions in support of a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaching universal salvation, http://www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm http://www.tentmaker.org/sitemap.html http://www.christian-universalism.com/links.html copy and paste into address bar if necessary and they will learn that the Bible actually teaches universal salvation instead, not even annihilation. Or, they will go to the search engine at the top of http://www.tentmaker.org and will type in a key word or phrase from any argument or scripture passage. Ten articles will come up refuting the claim that the Bible teaches eternal torment. Then they may click to the next page and ten more articles will come up, and so on and so on for many pages. The many entries in my guestbook that is accessed towards the bottom of my front page at http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/ and the many entries at http://www.tentmaker.org/visitorcomments.htm show just how much this information is helping people. This was the information that enabled me to recover from a twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-68), and it gives me great joy to keep learning every day that it is helping more and more other people too!! I’m 68 |
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Daddy Lox
Oct 15th, 2007 - 4:52 AM |
Re: Why I went from a Bible college student to Christian Universalist
Hello Rodger, thanks for posting. It was certainly thought-provoking. I'm with you on your free will thoughts found in the links (though I admit I did not exhasutively search them). I understand God to be sovereign, but had not considered the extent of his will to "casuality". I'll have to consider that more. I have not verified the language studies for the "eon", but I will accept your findings for the sake of this discussion. I do not understand how the end of Revelation 20 fits into your belief. I undertstand Hell to be temporary torment. But when I consider the Lake of Fire, I assume that to be the permanent torment. I haven't studied the LOF, so let me know if I'm off base. When you get a chance, drop a note to discuss. Jim |
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Rodger Tutt
Oct 15th, 2007 - 5:16 AM |
It is my understanding that Paul saw way beyond John's revelation
Many will ask, “What scriptural evidence is there of being saved out of the lake of fire which is the second death?" There actually is much evidence. Although the book of Revelation is the last book placed in the Bible, it is not the final revelation of what God is going to do with humanity. The apostle Paul saw way beyond John. Col.1:25 of which I became a dispenser, in accord with the administration of God, which is granted to me for you, to complete the word of God There is much evidence that Paul did see way beyond John. For instance, in Revelation there are still kings reigning, and Christ is still reigning along with His followers. There are still sovereignties and powers in force throughout the book of revelation. So John did not see the day when all sovereignty, authority and power would be done away. Paul did. If you will look at 1Corinthians 15:24-28 Paul saw the day when all of these would be done away. He sees the day when "He should be nullifying all sovereignty, authority and power"(vs.24) Paul sees the day when Christ will quit reigning (vs.25). Paul sees the day when death (all death which includes the second death) will be abolished (vs.26). Please remember that death will be abolished **after** all the sovereignties, authorities and powers in Revelation have been nullified. Within the book of Revelation, death is still operational as are the afore mentioned powers. So what is going to happen to all these people who are in death when death is abolished? They will come forth vivified (made alive beyond the reach of death) (1Cor.15:22). They will have their lives justified and will be constituted righteous: Romans 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying. Romans 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just. All will be reconciled to God (Col.1:20) All will be headed up in Christ (Eph.1:10) All will bow the knee in the name of Jesus and acclaim with their tongue that "Jesus Christ is Lord" to the glory of God, the Father (Phil.2:9-11). And we know that anyone who acclaims that Jesus Christ is Lord, especially when it is to God's glory without any hypocrisy is saved for 1Corinthians 12:3 says so. So there is proof that people will go to the second death **when ** the new earth comes. And there is proof that this is not the final goal God has for these people. In summary then: The lake of fire is the second death. The apostle John did not see into the future as far as the apostle Paul. How do I know this? and what ramifications does this have as to whether or not one gets out of the lake of fire...the second death? Plenty. In the book of revelation Christ is still reigning; death is still operational; sovereignties, authorities and powers are still in force. In 1Cor.15:22-28 Paul sees way beyond John's revelation. He sees the day when Christ will quit reigning (1Cor.15:25). He sees the day when all sovereignties, authorities and powers are nullified (1Cor.15:24). He sees the day when death is abolished (1Cor.15:26) and all are then subjected to Christ then Christ is subjected to God and then God is All in all (1Cor.15:28). So, yes, there is scripture which intimates that all in the lake of fire will come forth and God will be All in all. Also in 1Cor.15:22 all are dying and in Christ shall all be vivified. So this happens after death for most. Also in Romans 5:18,19 you have what happens to all mankind due to what Adam did which happens to the exact same all mankind due to what Christ did. But it does not happen to all at the exact same time. Each in his own order. Regarding the purpose and duration of the lake of fire which is the second death, see http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html |
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Daddy Lox
Oct 16th, 2007 - 6:01 AM |
Re: Why I went from a Bible college student to Christian Universalist
"I realize that the above thoughts define the subject very briefly, but let us summarize the meanings thus: BURN means combustion; to change the form of. FIRE means heat and light. BRIMSTONE means divine. Putting these three together can we not see that the lake burning with fire and brimstone is, actually, DIVINE HEAT AND LIGHT PRODUCING A CHANGE! Is such a process eternal? All the laws of nature shout that it is not!" This is seemingly contradictory to the "destroying, consuming, and burning up" of death and hell that is mentioned later in the article regarding the funtion of the Lake of Fire. What am I missing here? |
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Rodger Tutt
Oct 18th, 2007 - 4:16 PM |
What I got from the article
I think that J. Preston Eby teaches in his article on "the lake of fire which is the second death" that God will get rid of every negative thing in everyone that needs to be gotten rid of so that by the time God's plan for the ages of time has been consummated, everyone, without exception, will have been saved from everything from which they need to be saved. At least that's what I got out of it. |
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