Hi all,

I've constructed this summerised pictorial history of TSD based on GM Hwrang's accounts and some further research. If anyone can spot any errors, please point them out:

http://usera.imagecave.com/armchairstrategist/fw-19-tang-soo-do.jpg

Cheers,
AS

Cute, but you forgot the part where he ripped off what we now call Shotokan and never gave them credit for the vast majority of what he morphed into what some now call Tang Soo Do.

I really think we need to change the name of Tang Soo Do to "Korean Shotokan" and begin to study from the real Masters who understand what the real creator of our Martial Art was teaching.

Tang Soo - Shotokan!
Dave

Well we wouldn't be going to Gichin Funikoshi then, we would have to go to Okinawa and learn, since Funikoshi supposedly did not know the Bunkai to the forms he altered for the Japanese, further it is not Shotokan we took Tang Soo Do from but the OKINAWAN TE that Funikoshi was teaching, not Shotokan which his students named it later. That is why Shotokan and TSD have many similarities, they both came from the same root and developed side by side.

TangSoo
b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Well now,

let's see, 17 forms? what 17 forms are they?
humm, you seem to make lots of fun of this style, wha style do you practice?

funny thing about shotokan,I been wuppin ass at opens for years and your shotokan boys just can't stand up to my TANG SOO DO

haa
KC
A Brother Who Knows

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Mr Battleground,

I enjoyed your cartoon, it was nicely rendered.

Please tell me what style you take?
It obviously is much better than my poor chosen art.
Where do you train?
It must be a far superior place to my humble one.
Who is your instructor?
Would he be proud of your post?
Or ashamed to have you as a student.

bernard

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Me?

My instructor is grown up enough to see the funny side. But it would be erronous to assume that the cartoon is merely style bashing.

I'm just interested in getting closer to the truth of MA histories -kinda a hobby. TSD is not alone on my radar.

The history of the art is what it is -only the 'official' account wouldn't be recognised as 'history' by a historian. It's marred by politically motivated bull.

Yes, I use humour to illustrate the inconsistancies.

but interestingly enough, Hwang did only have 5 years (max) Kung Fu training and self-taught Teakkyon when he created the kwan. How much karate he had is more open to debate but by his account.. he'd read some books...

To dissmiss versions of the history which don't show the art in a rosey light as style bashing is rediculous.

happy practice.

Grand Master Hwang Kee studied in China for about 1.5 to 2 years, now to have gone on to create and run the TSDMDK he must have had something going for him.

MB

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

I said I enjoyed your cartoon, I didn't dismiss your conclusion, I do get tired of the subject matter, everyone has beated that horse so many times, we have hashed this out for ever on the net, every few months it seems somebody brings this up and we have to go thru it all over again. But you are right so question away, its how you learn.

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

I am ashamed to be associated with any of you that post these hate/bash letters on Koreans or anyone else. Who Cares!! The true spirit of any martial art is what comes from inside and how we develop as human beings to improve ourselves. It doesn't matter to me or my students how we got here or where/who/how it started...it only matters what we put into it and what we get out of it. We "fired" our last "Master" instructor because he embarrassed us, for exactly these reasons. It is ashame because there was no denying his knowledge. But who wants to be associated with that? Grow up - all of you!

Well said , All Grown Up,

So how is Novi MI this time of year??
Good Luck May 21st

b

Ashamed of what "all grown up"? -people who try to give a factual account of the arts history? People who care what the history is and how it is portrayed? Or people who perpetuate the lies about its history?

MaBattleground,

I think AllGrown Up more concerned with the tone of your posts rather than content?

We all know that GM Hwang Kee had no real formal training per se, and that he did create the strongest Kwan in Korea in spite of that, so I would think the problem is the harsh way you present the evidence, or a better word may be disrespectful? If that makes sense.
It is all well and good to point out the facts, it is another thing to do it in a way in which it is condescending or derogatory.

Be that as it may,
You never did say what style you study, I know a lot of good Tang Soo Do is taught in London, so which school over their do you train at??

b

If this all came from Okinawan TE then who taught this martial art to Hwang Kee. We certainly can trace the TE teaching down to Shotokan but I can not seem to understand how this moved to Korean so we know if all the knowledge was past on.

Are there any TSD Masters out there that learned the Bunkai, Henei and Oyo (sorry about the Japanese terms) through TSD or is the only to get this information is through Shotokan?

Is TSD the hyundai and Shotokan the Acura.

Tang Soo!
Dave

This argument around tang soo do's history (and also tae kwon do)will never be factually resolved because the old korean masters will take the truth to their graves, but anyone who researches without bias will see that obviously the koreans were last in the evolution of what we know as the modern organized martial arts. I've studied both TSD and shotokan as well as reading up on most the other tradition okinowan and Japanese arts, and it's plain to see they evolved from china to okinowa to japan and then korea. For all korean's to claim their art is 2000 yrs old is rediculous but indeed tang soo do and tae kwon do both use the same cave pictures of martial art poses, found in ancient korea, to make that claim. Thats not to say korea may certainly have had forms of martial arts, as some of their history speaks of the Hwa Rang warriors, but to use this to point to the modern art forms of tsd and tkd is quite a leap. My instructors were all american so i've never been really indoctrinated with the korean line which allowed me to look at it with an open mind. It's just blatently obvious that the koreans, all of them, were greatly influenced, maybe completely influenced by the japanese mostly and that is due to the fact that they were completely occupied by Japan for the first half of the 1900's. The Japanese stripped them of all national identity and made them Japanese subjects even giving them Japanese names and forcing them to use only jap language and culture and customs. Many men were forced to fight with the japanese army and certainly exposed to their fighting techniques which were mostly shoto-kan. Hwang kee speaks in his book of being in manchuria china where he learned the tang method,(rediculous) as well as learning from whatever was available (vague), the fact is Manchuria was taken over by the japanese army in the 1930's and the chinese emperer was a puppet for the japs. Again even if he was there it was probably shoto kan being taught. I think the bottom line is that the Koreans have a bitter anymosity and maybe ever hatred for what japan did to them during ww2 and they aren't about to give them any credit for anything. They want so much for their national pride to claim these are their arts. I deal with a Korean man for karate equiptment and he gets bitterly upset if i hint that tang soo do is not original. He claims the japs copied the koreans. It's all about the national hatred for each other. I personally believe they did have art forms based on kicking techniques but being lost in antiquity or disallowed by japan they therefor drew on what was available and that was mostly shotokan. A perfect examle is in the original shorin ryu( predating shoto kan) pinan 1 and 2 are reversed in order from that of shoto kan. Funakoshi reversed them and guess what tsd does likewise. If one just looks at the forms they not only look almost the same step for step they also follow the same order. To say that they have the same roots in china or even okinawa and thats why the simularities is akin to saying two people creating the first automobile , in different countries , would both create a model T . I personaly don't think just because a system developed from another lessens it, on the contrary, many systems evolve and improve. For tang soo do to take Shotokan and ad greater emphesis on korean kicking techniques may even make it superior. As a matter of fact when chuck norris came on the tournament scene in the early 60's he tore up the circut with his kicking skills. Most of the Japanese and okinowan fighters at the time never kicked much above the waist. `Now with taekwon do they evolved from tang soo do specifically because there was this okinowan , japanese connection and they wanted to eliminat it by creating new forms. The funny thing is tangsoodo was created in 1945 and taekwondo in the 50's yet they hold to the claim that their 2000 yrs old. The frustration for people like me is we just like the history and want to know the truth but its' plain to see very few koreans will ever admit it and as they die off we will stuck with this false history forever.

Martial Art Style tsd

MA Battleground or Armchair strategist is a talented satyrical web cartoonist as seen here:

http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?s=e9f8f17e3a5e1d89f3ea831822748ea0&name=Reviews&file=viewcategory&cid=19

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Actually, the pictorial I thought was cute. It was oversimplistic, but it had what humor needs and that is some elements of truth.

As far as the hyungs, I have several conflicting stories as to where they came from. First, let me say the forms came out of China...most of us can agree on that...migrated to Okinawa, taken by Funakoshi to Japan...some claim that they made their way into Tang Soo Do via that route, others have told me that the forms came from China to Korea.

Short of asking Grand Master Kee and being given a straight answering I do not know for certain. I do know those that joined Tang Soo Do in the early were often from other systems and experienced in them and I would most likely be correct in my assumption that many things melded into what we know as Tang Soo Do today.

An 8th Dan Grand Master Myung I was honored to study under as a guest for two years told me this (slightly paraphased): The forms the way the Tang Soo Do Federation in Korea and Tang Soo Do here (meaning USA) does them is not traditional, and not too right. The way you (me) do them is not right. I went and studied and learned and wrote them all down. I learned from the monastaries and other places. I have collected over 275 traditional forms done the way the monks and other practicioners taught me. I will show you how to do them right and show you what the movements are really supposed to do.

In short, the path of the forms he taught me did not stem from Shotokahn or Okinawa, but came from China and in some cases you can see Korean influences in them and others you can see stronger chinese influences, I assume it is from where he learned them in his quest for knowledge.

The gist of it is, I am fairly sure the forms Master Myung was teaching were not taken from either Okinawa nor Japan. I dipped back closer to the Chinese source.

An Art is a living breathing thing. Even if Master Kee took the forms from Japan, and Myung retook them from China...I believe at this stage...Tang Soo Do has just as a legitimate right to stand tall as a separate style as other newbies on the block such as Shotokahn, Tae Kwon Do, Jeet Kune Do, and countless other styles.

The comic does not bother me, because I never represent that Tang Soo Do is an ancient Art 2,000 years old. Instead I tell my students the truth, that it is about 60 years old (respectable) but the techniques that comprise it are much older and perhaps (depending on what you read and whom you believe) ancient. Under that guise, I can chuckle at it, we all should be able to take a little poking here and there. It changes nothing, I will still proudly tell everyone that asks that I am a Tang Soo Do instructor and student of the Martial Arts.

Jamie Yowell

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Ooops...sorry about the grammar I kept getting interrupted and no I was unable to learn all 275 forms plus in the two years I was a guest in his school. But, I am thankful for the things he did teach me as they have added to my training more than I can express.

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Oh and one disclaimer, Master Myung also spent some time in Japan as a team responsible for the return of war trophies and other items stolen during World War II so it is indeed possible that some of the forms he might have picked up during his visit as well. Though what he had taught me was definitely alien to identical forms in Okinawan Shorin Ryu and Shotokahn when the Shotokahn styles even had the forms. Many of the forms he taught me do not seem to exist in Shotokahn, yet exist in Okinawan Styles such as Shorin Ryun (different but recognizable)-this evidence along with Master Myung's stories led me towards the Chinese connection in this case.

And to tie it all together...Even if an instructor gets his forms from Japan and another gets it from China it blends in and expands and writes its own story. Regardless we are still a unique style. Those that brag about being older...older does not always mean better.

Ok lets have a fight line up all the staunch military traditionalists on this side, heres your armor and swords....line up all the modern folks over here...here is your night vision goggles, M16s, M60s and RPGs...ok lets rock guys ;)

I love tradition, but really the intention of such a comic by the artist seems to be to point out what he believes is better by virtue of being older...that belief is just foolish if that is his belief, it is just as foolish as believing something newer (a new square wheel) is better than the old round one just because it is newer. Things stand on their own merits, you guys decide where Tang Soo Do stands with you. Cross train, add to the depth of the art, it is up to us to make it better and give our students an art and system that is slightly better than the one we inherited if at all possible.

Jamie

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Doesn't Master Myung have a book with all the forms in it? do you recall how much it is and how to get a copy??


b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

The answer is he did before moving to Las Vegas. He self-published a book and it did not have all the forms in it. It has Geicho Hyung Il Bu up through Jin Tae. I will be honest with you the book itself is not very helpful due to errors in either the pictures or in the text. Master Myung for example taught me Bassai So (until I met him I had never done this form only the second version Bassai Teh or Dai or whatever various people call them) and during the process of learning the form I noticed in the book that if you followed the book you would do perform it in error.

This comes from the fact I assume Master Myung has difficulty with English as it is his second language and the students who helped him put it in writing did not pay attention to detail (and one person that helped him I know had an elitist attitude that these forms were sacred and should not be out there-an attitude that I told him made no sense as Master Myung was putting them in a book to share...his opinion was that Master Myung was putting it in a book to entice people to come to his school and learn...whatever the reason I believe this student a senior black belt's attitude may have contributed to the manual not being so clear and easy to follow). All my speculation and I talk too much LOL, but the bottom line is I would not recommend the book to a new student or someone that did not already know the forms.

With this said, the book does have valuable information (it is hardbound and pretty) and if you already know the forms it is a good reference material...mine is all marked up with corrections. Master Myung published it himself out of his own pocket as he did not want to give up the rights to the book. He was charging about 49.00 for the book, which was really steep. At one time he was planning on doing two more books in which he would put the rest of the forms (though all 275 plus I would think that would take more volumes), however this project from what I know would not seem to be happening at this time.

If you really want a copy of the book I have a used one I can let you have for shipping and handling. I have the one with all my notes in it and he gave me one for my father and another one to share with someone else. I never shared it because the text without instruction was so difficult to follow, it was just easier for me to pass the forms on to others in person, but if you want it I can send it to you for the cost of shipping and handling.

As for the books, I do not know their fate. He wanted me to help him sell them when he was moving and I wanted to assist him, but he wanted me to buy the books up front for thousands of dollars (reduced from his cover price the books would have cost me about 29 to 39 bucks each depending on when we had our conversation and then he wanted me to sell them at 49 dollars allowing me to keep the profit). I just didn't have the cash nor a plan to distribute them for him, nor because of the difficulty in following the text (ie he taught me the forms through him or his senior student and what he taught was different than if you followed his instructions in his book) I was a bit concerned on that note as well. Long story short I had to tell him that I did not think this would work which did not make him happy, and resulted in him withdrawing his second offer to me which was a copy of all of his personal notes in his books diagraming all the forms he had collected-[in Korean mind you, but I would have gladly had them lovingly translated whatever the cost] :) Anyway long story short he had to have done something with that room full of books he had, I do not see him throwing them away but where they went to I do not know.

Master Myung can be difficult, but he is definitely a great teacher and as he took me in even after he closed his school and taught me (a black belt that was not even his) and other black belts without charge, I can honestly say that I owe him big and the man will always have my respect and deepest thanks. I only wish it were possible to have benefited from his knowledge and teaching a little longer.

Jamie

As I said, if you would like that book let me know and I will send the copy free just reimburse me for the shipping :)

Master Jamie Yowell,

That would be great, I will gladley pay shipping and handling, thank you for the offer, just let me know how you want to do it, I do have a paypal accnt if that helps.

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Master Redfield,

Just shoot me an email with the address you want it mailed to and I will send it. You can just send me a check for the postage after you get it. I imagine the postage would be around $5 tops because it is a hard bound book, but doing it this way there would be no guessing. If you would like we can send it insured or certified or by some other means as I the book is rare.

Jamie

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do