What do you guys think? We don't see to many (if any) TSD guys competing in Pride, UFC, KOTC, etc. Is it an effective form of fighting?

Well, in my opinion, it is apples and oranges....I see TSD as an art, just as many of the "traditional" martial arts. They are loosely based upon combat techniques and principles, but are more of an art form, emphasizing the development of strength, coordination, precision of movement, timing, etc. in terms of physical skills....then, there is the more scholarly side of the art, terminology, history, an understanding of physical principles, application, etc. Also, as with most "traditional" arts, TSD has philosophical aspects to it. I don't think that it was designed for the purpose of being simply an effective fighting system. Most TSD classes are based around a core of basic techniques practice and forms practice. Some pre-arranged patters called one-steps, and some very rudimentary techniques, mostly involving wrist escapes, which we call self-defense. Sparring, in most TSD schools, consists of point fighting, with very limited target areas and rules, which is basically a glorified game of tag. But, I don't believe that TSD, in its classical sense, is designed as a fighting or self-defense oriented system. Don't get me wrong....many of the techniques are very effective, and can be used effectively in self-defense or sport fighting. However, I see a big distinction between styles such as TSD, TKD, Shotokan, etc. which are more of classical arts, versus combat arts such as kickboxing, jiu-jitsu, etc. I don't think that this is a bad thing...I just think that we need to recognize it for what it is.

What do you guys think??

JP

It depends on what type of Tang Soo Do school you are. There are the “Arts” driven schools, “Tournament” driven schools, “Self Defense” driven school, “Combat” driven schools and even “Work-Out” driven schools.

There are some schools that claim to be all of these things and most are just some subset of them. Tang Soo Do can be the foundation for all these types of schools but my experience is that depending on the focus of the school most good instructors are integrating other Arts into their Tang Soo Do to support their focus.

So to answer your question directly, Is TSD an effective form of fighting, my answer is that it can provide a solid foundation to becoming a Professional Fighter but it is not a complete package.

Tang Soo!
Dave

I would say it is how you train in your Tang Soo Do that would decide if you are going to do well in a UFC style event. If you are someone who trains all out is a big strong athletic guy and know your strikes,throws takedowns and traps, can get inside and outside, and have good stamina, sure you can do well. But most people in a classical style don't train for that. I don't think an average studio black belt from any style, would last too long because of how they train and what they have taken from whatever Art they study Tang Soo Do or whatever, I would say any art to make it in a MMA event would have to crosstrain, Take Aikido,a Aikido man that only trains in a studio with guys who basically help the throws work would be surprised to find that he is not effective in the Ring, Judaka would have an edge in ground fighting and throws, but would lack an effective defense against punches and kicks, Jujitsu and Hapkido men have the advantage of knowing both striking and groundwork, but may not be as effective long range striking, than close in, a Kickboxer is great for long range and inside striking but no groundwork, But you take any of these styles and let them cross train and bring in the kind of conditioning you need for a MMA event and you have a more well rounded fighter. Tang Soo Do people have the ability to absorb other techniques from other styles and incorporate them into their Tang SooDo, it is encouraged, for instance the MiGukKwan which I belong to, likes to promote the Aiki aspects of our art, we use Jujitsu techniques, we use aikido techniques, to augment our understanding of Tang Soo Do grabbing techniques, I myself have Judo and Hapkido training, this is absorbed into my Tang Soo Do, so I like to strike to soften then go inside to throw or lock a joint/ choke, whatever, that is my flavor to Tang SooDo. So my point is yes a TAng Soo Do person who is motivated to train for a MMa event will do well if they train for it.

b

Yes, but that is my point....if they were to train for a MMA event, how would they train to be effective? I would bet that it would not be repetitions of basics walking up and down the floor, or ki cho or pyung ahn hyungs...the things that we TYPICALLY find in most TSD classes. Sure, anything can be incorporated into any art, but then, when does it begin to no longer be TSD, but something else entirely?

Also, I would like to point out that I see DRASTIC differences in striking and kicking styles between arts such as TSD, TKD, who emphasize point style or even olympic style sparring, vs. styles such as kickboxing or western boxing. Things like dropping the hands to parry or block kicks, rather than absorbing them...and the numerous terrible habits that point fighting develops. Again, not all TSD people fight this way, but you can usually tell a big difference in a point style fighter, and a kickboxer in the way they move, stand, throw techniques, and counter.

JP

this is such a great question! I basically teach sparring entirely separate from the art of TSD. I am moving my sparring class into the realm of K1 style kickboxing with a little grappling thrown in. I did a lot of point sparring when I was with ATA and am not a big fan of that type. The MMA connection though would be something that I think TSD practitioner would have a harder time going into the ring with a strong MMA practioner.

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do/ Haidong Gumdo

This is a question that many instructors don't like to answer...

Tang Soo Do as it is taught in the majority of the schools that I have seen teach it in the sporting sense, and not as a combat art. There is a huge difference in the training methods of the art and the sport.

In my school we cross-train in several other arts, to complete the puzzle (so to speak).

Tang Soo Do, being a karate based art is good for kicking and punching, but is seriously lacking in Ju-Jutsu based locks and manipulations. I always see Tang Soo Do organizations practicing Ho Sin Sul,and I was for many years practicing as the rest did until I became involved with a Hakko-Ryu Ju Jutsu instructor here in Michigan.

I thought that I knew what a joint lock was prior to meeting him. He helped me to gain a new appreciation for the finer points of his system. I earned my Shodan in Hakko-Ryu Ju Jutsu in 2001.

Tang Soo Do kicking and punching technique is good if you have the distance to set up the techniques, but what happens when the opponant is close enough to get a hold of you, and you have not successfully maintined a distance to stay effective? We also train in Wing-Chun Gung Fu with a couple of Sifu's that are direct students of Ip Ching (Yip Man's younger son). I have found that Wing-Chun principles and technique work great in CQC (Close Quarters Combat).

If the fight goes to the ground, Tang Soo Do, as it is taught is of little use, but Gracie type Ju Jutu systems work just fine in these situations.

The list goes on and on...

I don't think that there is a system taught anywhere that has all of the pieces of this complex puzzel in its original format. By cross-training in systems that specialize in the various techniques that make you a "WELL ROUNDED" martial artist you can compete anywhere, anytime and be successful.

Often times I here that a practitioner left his/her system because they saw something else that they thought was the "real deal". That same practitioner will wind up changing systems over and over again, looking for that one system that has it all, and they will never get anywhere because that one system doesn't exist.

Stay with your system for the long hall. Cross-train in other systems that specialize in the kind of technique that you feel weak in and bring the knowledge of that system back to your home school to share with your instructor and class mates.

This is the way the great masters of yesterday became who and what they were to the martial arts.

In the days of Itosu, Matsumura, Motobu, etc. a student trained with his instructor long enough to learn his specialty and then the student was sent on to another master, and another, and another and so on and so on...

After years of training like this the student was able to formulate his own system, based on what he had compiled. The master that started him out wasn't concerned with business or politics. He simply wanted his student to become the best, well rounded practitioner that he could be.

This is how it should be...

When you watch the UFC and other such competitions, even those that compete and claim to be of just one system have been around the block a few time and have experienced more then just one system.

Tang Soo Do is a great system if you train hard, and train smart all at the same time. Never close your mind to something that is done in another system. Take in everything that you can... it will only make you stronger.

Vince Morris has a new book out that explaines the mind set and principles of our hyung perfectly. Keep in mind, when our hyung were originally designed, the originators weren't concerned with plastic trophies and such. Each movement was designed to be effective in life and death situations. When you practice your hyung, you should have the martial applications in the forefront of your mind at all times. Never train hyung in a lazy fashion. I see far too many people that treat their hyung training as if it is nothing more then a ticket to the next belt. For them, hyung will never be of any true benefit, regardless of how many trophies that they may collect over the years.

The combat applications are ever present in our hyung. Kyusho and Tuite' are the heart of these applications.

My answer to your question is "YES" Tang Soo Do is a good combat art... it's up to you to see it and make it yours.

All the best,

TANG SOO!!!

Master Penfil

This topic comes up a lot and to be honest as this question is phrased it is very simple to answer.

Combat Sport - Depends on the Rules.

Tae Kwon Do Rules - Works great in an event where no one punches to the face...advantage often goes to the kicker.

If the rules are for Boxing, Advantage goes to the Boxer.

Rules are for grappling - Advantage goes to the Grappler.

UFC - I usually don't discuss especially since they claim to let the best compete and yet there are some persons that have not been allowed to compete - Some Strikers and true Bone Breakers....advantage goes often to the grapplers.

In true street fighting, things totally change. The winner is the one who controls the fight and fights on his terms (usually in adherence to the principles in the art of war.) A street feet is often decided on who lands the first solid blow. A fight to perserve ones life has no limitations.

Any art that has survived any length of time has some value to it, and if the practitioner knows how to use it, it is effective for self defense.

The answer to the question that was asked is a resounding yes as a Combat Sport provided the rules favor it.

In a fight to the death between two artists, that will always be up for interpretation. Are they of equal skill in their arts? Did the "Any given Sunday rule apply this time?" And in any case, I for one have no desire to fight anyone to the death to try to find out :)

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Any art where you learn to use your hands and feet as weapons is a viable combat art.

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do