An “Earned” Tang Soo Do degree (Dan) is one where you have tested to the a prescribed curriculum per the prescribed time frames and promoted by a Senior Rank Person in Tang Soo Do. In Tang Soo Do, it is nearly universally accepted that 4th Dan (Master) is the last rank with a significant testable curriculum. Yes there are some forms afterwards but generally there is not a substantial curriculum to be tested to.

Don’t get me wrong, learning never stops and those dedicated to reach the rank of Master generally cross train and continue their learning beyond their own style which enhances their Tang Soo Do. Personally I feel if they have time-in-grade and they are still active in Tang Soo Do then their promotions should be automatic after 4th Dan (Master). This would eliminate 99% of politics above 4th Dan and would practically eliminate the matchbox cover Degrees being sold out there today, all the politics / brown nosing could cease, and Association hopping for rank will disappear.

An “Honorary” Degree in general “Karate” or Martial Arts are Degree’s given to someone who does not meet the criteria of an Earned Degree stated above. For instance, I could have 5th Dan in Tang Soo Do but awarded a 6th Dan in “American Karate Systems” (fictious name I hope). If I were signing a Tang Soo Do certificate I would sign as a 5th Dan. Any time that I was referenced in terms of Tang Soo Do or my Tang Soo Do School or Tang Soo Do Association it would only be proper to be identified by my Tang Soo Do Rank. On the other hand (or back to the original hand – I guess), if I were writing or being addressed in a generic Martial Arts sense than it could be acceptable to be introduced as a 6th Dan.

A true story to drive home my point. An Earned 6th Dan leaves his Grandmaster for cause and goes independent with his own Association and has many Earned Masters under him – why would anyone have an issue with this person assuming his 7th Dan when he/she had time in grade. What does this person have to prove – he has developed Masters – GOSH - what else can anyone want from this person. This person will need to promote his students to their proper ranks and so are we as a TSD community going to make this Great Leader have to go around the world sucking up to someone A…hole just to get a blessing on his proper rank of 7th Dan. Hell No - - I hope.

Ok let me have it.

Tang Soo!
Dave

Who cares!!! All of these high dan ranks are pretty irrelevent anyways. I think that we put way too much emphasis on rank.

JP

That appears to be a pretty naïve point of view Sir. People apparently do care, just ask Master Zanker and your own Master Hancock how people reacted to their Honorary Degrees – people do seem to care.

If people are upset over Honorary Degrees then how much more concerned are they about Earned Degrees. If you are the head of an Association with 1,000 members and have many 5th and 6th Dan, I do not think they feel their 7th, 8th Dan or 9th Dans are irrelevant.

I am sure Grandmaster Byrne, Ferraro and CS Kim do not feel their ranks are irrelevant, in fact it is an extremely important traditional, and provides worldwide credibility for their students. I think you missed the point, the point was not about relevance it was about understanding and compassion to clarify what higher Dan rank means and the relevance it has in Martial Art order.

My writing was also clarify the difference between Earned and Honorary degrees which is very well established in the academic community and appears to be not as well understood in the Martial Arts community. Also to show that higher Dan ranks is more about time and continued contribution to the Art than needing some ordination from others.

By the way, in the current ranking system , if there are no 11th Dan then how can you have a 10th Dan and so on and so on – the system is flawed and has caused much worthless debate and so my writing was merely a possible solution to get rid of this in fighting once and for all.

The jest was, for example, can a 6th Dan who heads an Association and has some 4th and 5th Dans assume his 7th Dan if it has been 7 years since his 6th Dan and he continues in his training and contribution to the Art - my position is YES YES YES.

Tang Soo!
Dave

This whole rank issue is sad....
And I was going to keep quiet....but Ill say my peace
Its always been my stand that true Karate stops at 5th dan....with that said...lets discuss honorary and earned degrees. Its common knowledge the only one...correct me if im wrong! that hwang kee promoted to 9th dan was his own son who now heads the organization. and its common knowledge anyone who leaves the moo duk kwan no longer gets promoted by them! and I dont blame them! when others left the moo duk kwan...formed thier own federations and organizations now they were magicly 8th and 9th dans.. and we accept this! did they earn this high rank as in paying test fees and performing skill level required for such a high rank? of course not! did they as YOU ALL so desire find another korean grandmaster to promote them? you know they didnt! who? there was no other korean grandmaster who could! did they go outside thier own system to achieve this 8th or 9th dan? naaaaaaaaa they self promoted themselves.. as heads of thier own organizations...and I dont see anything wrong in this!yet Myself and Master Hancock did not self promote ourselves....did not pay a rediculas test fee for a high rank from someone who in fact promoted thier own self...yet not all but some of you choose to crusify us....because in fact we didnt mortage our house....didnt pay a fee at all, we didnt purchase our high rank...it wasnt bought...we did not promote ourselves...we were reconised for our years and service...and actually awarded such reconition. yet we're the bad guys....so keep saving your money for those high kodanja test fees....so you can justify your 7th and 8th dan...
Ive said it before and Ill say it again anything above and beyond 5th dan is honoary...we need to STOP the focus on the belt and rank....these are material desires.....material things of this material world we live in today....true karate is within...Master hancock nor myself may never make it in the history of tang soo do in the USA as being promoted to 7th and 8th dan because it didnt come from hwan kee or his son..or from any other Korean Master holding 9th dan! but if hwang kee only promoted one person to 9th dan his son.....then where did the others get thiers??? the whole rank issue is way out of hand...and the true meaning of the martial way has gotten lost. do we really need the japanese belts we use anyway to measure the level one is at? can we ever look at the person....and look past the belt.
We Americans are funny....the heads of all these fine Tang Soo Do federations are deserving of thier honoary titles self given or not ....they dedicated themselves to this art..and we hold them in high regard! as we should!!!!! yet when one of us are reconised for our service...because it didnt come from one of these pioneers were crusified....we need to let go of this and remember what were training for....and live the lifestyle without the material things we place in such high regard...the belt. its not the belt...its the person we need to look at
Tang Soo!
MD

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

by the way....to all my brothers!
in reality arent we all just white belts who never quit?
MD

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Exactly...Mr. Doty, I think that you are misreading my remarks....Look, I agree with you, everything above 5th should be honorary...in fact, I'll go a step further and say that maybe we shouldn't even have rank above 5th...why stop at 5th you say? Well, hell, why stop at 10th, why not 15th, or 20th dan? In reality, many of these large organizations have used higher dan ranks to hold out like a carrot in front of the noses of their practitioners, to keep them paying dues, force loyalty to the association, and, most importantly, keep the exhorbitant test fees coming in....you are right, people ARE obsessed with the idea of rank....and I don't understand why. Why don't we just concentrate on training, and forget about this whole rank issue. Sure, it has a purpose...that being primarily for competition. It's like a handicap in golf, to put competitors of approximately the same skill level together. Other than that, the rest of this stuff is just egotistical garbage in my never to be humble opinion.

JP

I hope I did not say that all ranks above 5th should be honorary – if I did, I didn’t mean that.

Just curious, does the ITSDA intend on promoting people to 6th - 10th Dans?


Tang Soo!
Dave

Well, actually, that is the subject of one of the Amendments that ITSDA is currently in the process of voting on....I made a proposal that ranks above 5th dan should be considered honorary based upon time in grade and a persons contributions to the art....there have been other proposals that we just eliminate the higher dan grades all together (which the more I think of it, actually doesn't sound too bad).

JP

I wil say this about the ITSDA, you guys are certainly progressive. Keep it up!

Tang Soo!
Dave

For the record: I did not and do not support the ITSDA admendment concerning the higher Dan ranks. And I DO hope it fails to pass. I do not believe we need any rank past 5th Dan.

JH

The Japanese knew all of this real history well before there was even a John or JH and it may only appear to be new thinking to some.

In terms of 2000 year history - every nation had warriors - the Greeks and Romans can easily lay an equal claim to the warrior arts and their arts are much better documented than some cave drawings.

King David (1,000 BC) of the Old Testament is the most ancient documented Martial Artist. He prayed thanking his creator for his swift hands and swift feet, he killed his 10,000's and at the age of 12 killed the best warrior of a opposing nation in face to face combat. Our dear Jewish brothers can easily claim they are the source of all Martial Arts that then went to Tibetian Monks who taught it to the Chinese who taught the rest of Asia.

Tang Soo!
Dave
President
King David Martial Arts Society
"The original Martial Art"

just kidding

Sorry for the above, I attached my message to "John" in the wrong string.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOppppps!
Dave

Let me see if we can get back on track.

My issue is that in all other disciplines that have rank such as education and the military the difference between Earned and Honorary is very well established but it is apparent this concept is not understand in the martial arts world which I believe has lead to the confusion.

Some examples:

George Custer held the war time rank of "General" it was "Honorary" and after the war he converted to an Earned rank. Did Custer earn the rank of General - YES YES YES, but it was "Honorary".

My pastor has written over 20 books and lectured all over the world and even started what is now the largest Episcopal seminary in the USA. He was given an Honorary Doctorate. He did not attend the university and meet their class requirements or testing requirements so it was not "Earned". Did he earn his Honoray Doctorite - YES YES YES. But to say that he has an Earned Doctorite degree is very much a different thing.

What appears to be obsession with rank is generally just confusion and not properly applying the Earned vs Honorary degree system properly.

If we call a spade and spade, I beleive the issue will greatly diminished in intensity.

Tang Soo!
Dave

RANK…

Everyone in the USA is hung up on RANK. I have said this for as long as I can remember, and I will continue to say it till I can no longer speak…

The only true purpose for BELT RANK is to show how far you have come in your instructors system.

Notice how I didn’t say; how far you have come in your system, organization, federation, association, etc.

The perception of “What it takes to qualify for a specific RANK” varies greatly from school to school, system to system, organization to organization, and so on…

A student that trains with, and achieves a given RANK under one instructor will have a higher level of knowledge and ability then the student of one school and less then the student of the same RANK from another school.

The only person that your RANK should matter too is your instructor. He/She is the one that trained you, and made the determination that you should have the given RANK that you hold. To EVERYONE else, your RANK means nothing.

I was promoted to 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th Dan over the last 23 years by one instructor. His name is GRAND MASTER CHUNG IL KIM. His rank, according to him is 9th Dan, and is certified by both the Moo Duk Kwan, and the Kookiwon in Korea. I know several individuals that hold 7th Dans in different system that are so senior to me that I have a hard time discussing the fact that hold this rank in their presence, I know far more individuals that hold a 7th Dan that I would have a hard time awarding any black belt rank too, so the question has to be; Who among us is in a position to say what rank anyone should hold that is not a member of their own school.

We have all been brought up in different environments and taught to believe that what we are being taught is the best thing out there since French toast. I prefer to show respect for all that I meet, and not concern myself with their RANK. If they are of sound character, and have a desire to learn and or teach in a respectful fashion, I don’t concern myself with the ego issues that can often time cause problems.

I have had several individuals approach me and request that I either introduce them to my instructor so they can request a promotion from him, or they ask me if I will promote them myself.

My answer to these individuals has always been the same, and will always be the same; Go back to the instructor the promoted you in the first place and get your promotion from him/her. If they won’t promote you, what is the problem…

I hate RANK jumpers. When I meet an individual that has a different instructor and organization on each certificate, red lights go off all over the place, and I have no desire to be involved.

There are too many organizations however that make their living off of individuals that are only interested in hanging a new certificate of higher rank on their wall every other year (or sooner). For a couple of hundred dollars, they will sign their name and stamp to a piece of paper and ship it out in the mail. They have never met the recipient, or seen them perform anything, other then how well they can place their signature on a check…

Again, I have no use for such individuals, or organizations….

I could go on like this for hours, but I have work to do, and I’m sure that all of you are of the same mind set as I am regarding this conversation.

Have a great day,

TANG SOO!!!

Master Penfil

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

OK. I'm going to have to play devil's advocate here (that should make Dave happy with me) and ask you Master Penfil..."If someone gets their B.S, M.A. and Ph.D. all from Univeristy of Pennsylvania....does this mean they are in some respect a more knowledgeable person...or more worthy of their ranking, say...than someone who got their B.S. from University of Kentucky, their M.A. from Michigan State University, and their Ph.D. from the University of Chicago? This also begs the qestion...what if someone got their Assoc. from Detroit Community College, their B.S. from Notre Dame and then went on to get their M.S. and Ph.D. from Harvard? Finally, what if they got all three from some little know school such as Murray State University?

My point is....you can't just 'assume' a condition or quality about a person because they may have earned ranks from several different sources. I think a better measure would be...did they stay within the same style (field of study) and their long term commitment to that study. Sure...it's nice to see names of well known top people on certificates...but really...this is not a greatly validating measure of them individually. What if a person had a black belt from Joe Lewis, got their 2nd Dan with Fumio Demura and their third and forth Dans from Benny Urquidez? Lots of famous names...could indicate they are good 'competitors'...may not indicate they have a great deal of personal depth though.

What I'm saying is...you have to be care about judging people based upon where they went to school, who they got their rank from, or other past associations. This can go either way.

Example: Frank Clay and I have had some very bitter fights over historical matters. Frank was once with a group that has 'PROVEN' themselves to be not only inaccurate...but boldly wrong in information. However, Frank has many other associations beside that particular group and individual...and it is the sum total of this knowledge that makes him up...and consequently why was able to break free from this disinformation and gain a good bit of respect from the very people who were his antagonist...me in particular. That doesn't mean we are going to swap spit or take windy walks together...but there is respect there...and we each recognize the other as 'legitimate masters'.

Even so....we still will argue on occasion. But...we wouldn't go around implying either of us are blithering idiots in general (just on particular points occasionally...lol).

JH

P.S. Frank...I've changed my mind again about Chinto Hyung. It is White Crane...not Tiger.

Rank? gee wiz guys
, I've been offered rank if I make a tape of all my techniques and send it off to Korea with $$$$$$ and I can have a nifty certificate and advance in rank yearly, Oh and I was sent a letter from a GM down south way who wanted me to join and open a school up here and be on the fast track to master, wooopie, naah, I'll just plod along as I have been and hope to be invited to a Kodanja Shim Sa one day.

I like Master Zackers saying , "I am just a white belt that never quit" hehe

just me
b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

You are absolutely correct in this statement regarding accumulated knowledge from many sources Master Handcock.

If a student/instructor train’s with Joe Lewis, Bill Wallace, Benny (the Jet), etc. over the years, he will gain a great deal of knowledge and be a better practitioner in some ways as a result.

I don’t take issue with the guy that cross-train’s for purpose of improvement. Just like the student that does his/her undergrad work at the University of Michigan and then transfers to Columbia in New York to do his/her Master’s work. There is a betterment that takes place in such training and learning.

I am addressing in my posting the practitioner that has a sole interest in showing off a higher rank because it is what he/she thinks is so important. G.M. Zacker hit the nail right on the head with his statement about “us all just being white belts that never quit”. This was what I was eluding to when I stated that I prefer to show respect for all who I come in to contact with regardless of rank or affiliation and just train hard and learn from one another in a MUTUALLY respectful fashion.

I will be the last one to, in the proverbial sense, throw stones at others. If a student/instructor chooses to change affiliation with good reason, I will talk with them and help them if possible. When I am told by a prospect that is looking to join my organization that they are leaving their current or past organization because they were refused a promotion from 3rd to 4th Dan, and I come to find out that they were just promoted to 3rd Dan a year ago, I don’t see that as an acceptable reason to be leaving and moving to my organization. There are far too many individuals that I have come across that fit this description then I care to discuss.

I made my 1st and 2nd Dan under instructors that had made it to 3rd & 4th Dans respectively from a local Tang Soo Do organization here in Michigan. My instructors had not been training under their instructor for several years prior to my beginning with them. By the time I had made my 2nd Dan with them, they had nothing more to teach me, as I had learned all that they knew (with regard to Tang Soo Do from a technical standpoint).

I had been stagnant for some time, teaching my own class when I acquired a student that had a brother training with H.C. Hwang in New Jersey (Mr. Charles Waters). Charles Waters was a red belt at that time. After several conversations with him on the phone, he put me in touch with Master H.C. Hwang, and in a short time I decided to join U.S. Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Fed.

This happened in May of 1983. I became a student to G.M. CHUNG IL KIM at that time and have been with him since.

Someone might ask me how I can discuss people jumping from one organization to another and receiving rank certification from different organizations. The answer is this; I didn’t receive a promotion from 2nd to 3rd Dan for joining U.S.T.S.D.Fed., or for having my students join and pay all sorts of dues and fees. I had to go through a Dan evaluation testing that was given to me by Master Russ Hanke, after training for 3 months with Mr. Steve Diaz (now in Mobile, Alabama), 2 sessions per day, 2 hours per session 4 day per week. I passed this evaluation testing on the first attempt and was granted the 2nd Dan ranking that I came in with. That was all that I was interested in and nothing more.

I have cross-trained in several systems over the past 33+ years. I have a 1st degree black belt in:
Isshinryu Karate (Honorary) Under G.M. Willie Adams in Detroit, Michigan
Hakko-Ryu Ju Jutsu (Earned) Under Kaiden Shihan Garner Train in Clio, Michigan

Additional training in:
Shotokan No earned rank Shihan James V. Morrone, Jr.
Motobu-Ha ****o Ryu No earned rank Shihan Garner Train
Wing Chun Gung Fu No earned title Sifu Garner Train

When I am on these instructors floors, I line up with the 1st Dan’s as that is my given rank in their systems and schools.

If someone asks me what my rank is in these school, my answer is 1st Dan, not 7th Dan, or if it is a school that I do not hold rank in I simply state that I am just a visitor.

When you transfer from one system to another, it is like taking a language class in German for several years and achieving a high level of proficiency, then changing to Japanese and expecting to have the same “high” level of proficiency… it doesn’t work that way. When you start over in a new system, you leave your rank out side the door and start over again at white belt.

I saw 2 local instructors go from being 4th and 5th Dan’s in Tang Soo Do to being 5th and 6th Dan’s in Tae Kwon Do, just by signing up their students and their school with that Tae Kwon Do association. How do you go from one system to another and be granted a master’s ranking without having spent the years of training in that system to have earned it?

These are the RANK JUMPERS that I am referring to in my postin

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

I agree that the ranks are important, but they are only as important as where they came from. For example, a 4th Degree Black Belt in one school or organization my have 4 years total experience in the Martial Arts, while in the federation I am in they would have perhaps 20 years or more as a black belt.

4th Dan would also not entitle me in my organization to the title Master :(

In the end, one person or another can tell me they are this or that...but sadly it is at some point irrelevant to me until I know more about the person and where their credentials come from. By nature, I often give more respect to a First Degree Black Belt that took 4 years to get his belt than I do a 3rd Degree that has 2.5 years of total experience in the Martial Arts. (There are other factors that come into play of course...but for the sake of argument I am simplefying it to just time)

I am not saying that I am rude, someone wearing a 5th Dan will get a warm smile and a shake of the hand, even a bow...he will get curtesy....even knowing he has 6 years of Martial Arts experience in total....now on the other hand should I know he has 30 years of experience...he'll more than likely get both my courtesy and respect.

In many ways, it all is relative. Further, I realize it is not my position to determine whether a black belt earned his belt/rank or not unless he out and out tells me it is only honorary (in that case I know someone wanted to honor him and he or she is not a black belt in the truest since). I make that (whether they deserve their belts or not) decision with my students and the testing boards I am honored to sit on only. But, back to what I said...it takes more than a lot of stripes on a black belt's belt to have my respect...respect (in a day an age with little standardization) is something earned in one way (the persons hard work in getting to black belt) or another.

Jamie Yowell
4th Dan

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

As I am thinking I am not sure the earlier analogy involving Custer was correct. He was made a Brevet General, which is not honorary as much as necessary. During the War they needed Generals, he was therefore Breveted to the Rank of General...meaning he held the position and was still paid as a Colonel. Many reasons this was done, to include Congress saving money and controlling purse strings. At the end of the War, most Brevet ranks were of course revoked and most (not all) like Custer were returned to their previous rank. There are many who believe that this actually is what got Col Custer killed at little big horn as he was looking for something HUGE SPECTACULAR to get those stars back, resulting in him making several careless tactical blunders.

My point being, I am not sure this is completely analogous to the conversation of Earned versus Honorary Degrees in this sense, at least from the way I am looking at it.

As for Degrees above 5th being Honorary after having earned you 1st through 4th degrees or 1st through 5th degrees. I am not sure that is necessarily the way to look at it either. In some systems, a 5th degree black belt will have been a black belt for at least 25 years and been in the martial arts for about 30. If that belt started at 20 years old in the martial arts that would make the individual 50. Now I have been in since I was 5 and find myself now at 33 and as much as it irks me I really do find that things are no longer working like they once did. At open events it gets harder to compete with the 18 year old kids...I use experience and knowledge more and more to beat them rather than relying on speed, strength and great timing...why because as much as it irks me to admit it...some of those kids are actually faster than me now!!!!!

Basically, to take someone out who has the knowledge and put them through a rigorous test after a certain Dan ranking (which I dare say many would still pass) is perhaps unnecessary. You would be testing how well their body has stood up to time and sometimes even their training over the years. (My list of Martial Arts related injuries becomes longer as the years pass as I am sure many of yours has become and some have a more lasting impact than others.)

Now, with this said...how would someone be promoted beyond 4th or 5th without a test and would it have to be an honorary degree? My answer is absolutely not. If the organization did it right it still could be an earned degree. The criteria for achieving the belt may be how much work the individual has put into the organization, maybe how well they have represented the art, have they stayed active the whole time? What have they done to promote the art? Most importantly, are they still learning and adding to their knowledge base...are they still growing? See learning and Growing should go on till the day a Martial Artist dies...no matter how much we know or think we know, I am sure it is insignificant compared to what we as of yet do not know.

Would a belt granted by a board under these circumstances not be earned? We know a guy can kick and punch or he would never have put on that 4th Dan or 5th Dan. In fact, I dare say it would be easier for some of us to get promoted if our organization just let us get up before its board and throw some pretty kicks, do some awesome Hyungs, and flat out fight for our belt...than to have to live in a way that proves that we deserve to be promoted beyond 4th or 5th Dan.

Jamie

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do