This argument around tang soo do's history (and also tae kwon do)will never be factually resolved because the old korean masters will take the truth to their graves, but anyone who researches without bias will see that obviously the koreans were last in the evolution of what we know as the modern organized martial arts. I've studied both TSD and shotokan as well as reading up on most the other tradition okinowan and Japanese arts, and it's plain to see they evolved from china to okinowa to japan and then korea. For all korean's to claim their art is 2000 yrs old is rediculous and does an injustice to truth, but indeed tang soo do and tae kwon do both use the same cave pictures of martial art poses, found in ancient korean tombs, to make that claim. Korea may certainly have had forms of martial arts, as some of their history speaks of the Hwa Rang warriors, but to use this to point to the modern art forms of tsd and tkd is quite a leap. My instructors were all american so i've never been really indoctrinated with the korean line which allowed me to look at it with an open mind. It's just blatently obvious that the koreans, all of them, were greatly influenced, maybe completely influenced by the japanese mostly and that is due to the fact that they were completely occupied by Japan for the first half of the 1900's. The Japanese stripped them of all national identity and made them Japanese subjects, even giving them Japanese names and forcing them to use only jap language, culture and customs. Many men were forced to fight with the japanese army and certainly exposed to the army's fighting techniques which were mostly shoto-kan. Hwang kee speaks in his book of being in manchuria china where he learned the tang method,(rediculous) as well as learning from whatever source that was available (vague), the fact is Manchuria was taken over by the japanese army in the 1930's and the chinese emperer was a puppet for the japs. Again even if he was there it was probably shoto kan being taught. Isn't it ironic that a few months after ww2 ended and the japanese left korea the koreans started opening up clubs. I think the bottom line is that the Koreans have a bitter anymosity and maybe even hatred for what japan did to them during ww2 and they aren't about to give them any credit for anything. They want so much for their national pride to claim these are their arts. I deal with a Korean man for karate equiptment and he gets bitterly upset if i hint that tang soo do is not original. He claims the japs copied the koreans. It's all about the national hatred and national pride. I personally believe they did have art forms based on kicking techniques but being lost in antiquity or disallowed by japan they therefor drew on what was available (Hwang Kee admits to this in his book, "that there were no native arts so he drew upon what was available", but never gets specific). A perfect example is in the original shorin ryu( predating shoto kan) pinan 1 and 2 are reversed in order from that of shoto kan. Funakoshi reversed them and guess what, tsd does likewise. If one just looks at the forms they not only look almost the same step for step they also follow the same order. To say that they have the same roots in china or even okinawa and thats why the simularities is akin to saying two people creating the first automobile , in different countries , would both create a model T . I personaly don't think just because a system developed from another lessens it, on the contrary, many systems evolve and improve. For tang soo do to take Shotokan and ad greater emphesis on korean kicking techniques may even make it superior. As a matter of fact when chuck norris came on the tournament scene in the early 60's he tore up the circut with his kicking skills. Most of the Japanese and okinowan fighters at the time never kicked much above the waist. `Now as for taekwon do, it's the result of a nationaly effort in the 50's by most korean instructors to consolidate under a new name, creating new forms and claiming their uniqueness, yet they still ,(like tsd,) hold to the claim that their art is 2000 yrs old. The frustration for people like me is we just like the history and want to know the truth but its' plain to see very few koreans will ever admit it and as they die off we will stuck with this false history forever.

Martial Art Style tsd

OK...just so everyone knows...that last post wasn't me (JH)...but its nice to see the message I've been putting out there for a long time is starting to take hold. There is no shame in the truth...and the truth is there IS a heavy influence from Japan in Korean Martial arts. That doesn't mean Japanese arts are any 'purer'...ergo...better...than Korean Martial Arts. Without digressing into a long diatrabe (as I'm wont to do)...I will simply say...I have practiced Aikido...and Hapkido. I prefer the second one. It just seems to make more sense to me to kick the sh#t out your opponent before you throw and pin him.

JH

The Japanese knew all of this real history well before there was even a John or JH and it may only appear to be new thinking to some.

In terms of 2000 year history - every nation had warriors - the Greeks and Romans can easily lay an equal claim to the warrior arts and their arts are much better documented than some cave drawings.

King David (1,000 BC) of the Old Testament is the most ancient documented Martial Artist. He prayed thanking his creator for his swift hands and swift feet, he killed his 10,000's and at the age of 12 killed the best warrior of a opposing nation in face to face combat. Our dear Jewish brothers can easily claim they are the source of all Martial Arts that then went to Tibetian Monks who taught it to the Chinese who taught the rest of Asia.

Tang Soo!
Dave
President
King David Martial Arts Society
"The original Martial Art"

just kidding
Email: doty15143@comcast.net

Not suprizingly...you missed the point again. I wasn't discussing the 'point of view' of the Japanese. I was poignantly stating that Koreans have had a bad habit of 'creative revisionism' with regard their Martial histories....and that we, after nearly a decade of pushing and pursuing the issue, are finally seeing effect toward changing this in the popular conciousness.

And I don't know how to break this to you...but Egypt has the Israelites beat on documentented martial practices in ancient times.

But of course...you have to support the dogma of your religions restrictions.

JH

Sir, can we keep it professional... pleeeeeease. I did say "just kidding" about the King David stuff - just trying to have a little fun. I am very sorry if I offended you in anyway.

Dave

Martial Art Style TSD

I wonder what Summeria Mu had for Martial Arts?

HM

Dave D.
Why didn’t I think of the “King David Martial Arts Society”, after all, I’m Jewish!!! Can I be Vice-President??? Wait just minute, I’m the senior here. I want to be President!!!
(Just Kidding)

All that has been posted here is good, so I won’t go in to a long dissertation like I usually do.

JH, how do you like being the Chief? I hope that all is good for you…

Give me a shout when you have a minute.


Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do