As you all know, I have been all over the internet and bravenet.com for a long time looking for answers to my questions about Tang Soo Do.

I have been totally unsatisfied with the explanation of the movements of TSD and the meaning of Forms that I was taught and that are documented in all the mainline TSD books and video tapes which I own and study.

It is very obvious to me and most others that Hwang Kee never received formal training in the Forms he borrowed to make up Tang Soo Do.

Because of this, Tang Soo Do has suffered in not having the full understanding of these "borrowed" Forms. But Hwang Kee, in his great wisdom, told us to adopt what works (sorry, I forget the exact quote) and that TSD is a “LIVING ART”.

I was very near to closing my TSD school and becoming a new student in the Japanese Arts so that I could learn the real applications and variations of the Forms that have become so much a part of me.

I needed a deeper relationship and understanding of the Hyungs but I did not want to leave my first love, Tang Soo Do.

A few months ago we had a discussion in this forum on Bunkai, Henka and Oyo and the light clicked on... I knew that this was what I was searching for in my training. I began a dialogue with the poster who has an Earned 7th Degree in TSD.

This weekend, I invited this man to give a seminar at my school for the Red/Black belts. In a 24 hour time span we recorded over 11 hours of video tape of the most incredible TSD that I have ever seen or felt. Yes... it was Tang Soo Do.

Allow me to share one little revelation I made up based on what I saw, "Loads (chambering movements) are really Blocks and Blocks are really Strikes". There are no wasted movements. Every single movement translates in to very distinctive defensive and or offensive applications. Here is another little revelation, "Stances are extremely powerful weapons". Look for me on e-bay I have over $1000 of TSD books and tapes that will be going very cheap.

I would like to thank Master Jay S. Penfil for his seminar this weekend and thank him for his dedication to the Martial Arts.

We will be having Master Penfil back in late July for another weekend seminar; I would like to invite all of you to Pittsburgh.

For those who contact me first (and have a sleeping bag) I will be able to provide sleeping accommodations for up to 12 people at no charge.

Tang Soo!
Dave Doty, Ee Dan and Chief Instructor
Christian Karate Academy
doty15143@comcast.net
www.cka.50megs.com

"Allow me to share one little revelation I made up based on what I saw, "Loads (chambering movements) are really Blocks and Blocks are really Strikes". There are no wasted movements. Every single movement translates in to very distinctive defensive and or offensive applications. Here is another little revelation, "Stances are extremely powerful weapons".


Dave I find it amazing that you have not been taught these "secrets" all along! This is nothing new to most of us here. here's one for you that is similar to something you wrote, execute your block as if it were a strike. welcome back to Tang Soo Do.

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Thank you.

I have trained under mainline TSD Masters and Grandmasters and neither I nor anyone else I know has been taught any of the things demonstrated last weekend. Trust me when I say the two things I mentioned earlier is merely a drop in the bucket of what was shared.

I am not sure why this was new to us. Maybe it is because none of our previous instructors had ever cross-trained in the original Arts that Hwang Kee borrowed from. Or if they had they were not sharing it.

Maybe becuase it is not in any of TSD books and video tapes from any of the main line organizations. Trust me, I have them all.

It is hard to understand becuase I have been successful in TSD tournaments and Open tournaments so I suspect I was getting what I was being taught because everyone around me was doing nearly the same stuff.

The TSD Forms curriculum (application and variation)now appears to me to be only a shadow of what had been passed down in the Japanese Arts.

I am very excited about learning for the true roots of TSD and I encourage anyone who may have not had this exposure to join us in Pittsburgh on July 29-31 for some fun and learning.

Tang Soo!
Dave

Since everyone already knows this stuff then can I assume this is part of standard TSD curriculum throughout the country. Can anyone refer me to any TSD books, papers, or video’s that explain:

1. What body parts of a front stances is used as an attack against what body part of the attacker?

2. If everyone knows that all loads are really blocks or pulling your attacker into you body then why don’t all the mainline books and tapes not address just say it? The word "load" should almost be striken from TSD lexicon.

3. If in a Hyung everyone knows what looks like a High Block is really a strike to the neck with a forearm, then why is it a called a high block?

4. I know that most strikes are to pressure points – are there any TSD materials that explain the points we are striking?

If all of this is not available from TSD, then we must be cross-trained in the original Arts... so why is this never mentioned? Strike that question – I think I know why.

Is it fair then to say Tang Soo Do in and of itself is not a complete system if all these "secrets" are not available to all Masters and Students or that we must study other Arts to get a full understanding of what we are doing.

Searching!
Dave

Why am I not surprised.

Maybe its just me, but your posts always seem to be angry, except for this one when you sang praises to Master Penfil, then in the same thread in the very next post, BAM, your back to being angry. I'm sure whatever post I made would have been wrong, your questions seem loaded, I'm sure you already have the answers from Master Penfil, so my or anyone elses response would be an opportunity for an angry rebuttal. I am happy Master Penfil has made the effort to help you with your search for truth. BUT, since nobody alive was around when these forms were created, and they were passed down thru word of mouth for so long it is only more speculation by anyone as to what was originally envisioned by the creators of the various hyung.
OK I'll bite just once,
Take your First question about a front stance, I was taught years ago that the front stance by itself, is also an attack to the inner thigh, which could off balance an opponant. now lets build upon that, the right leg forward front stance, with a left hand chambered to the hip is the grab and pulling in and the right low block is a strike to the back of the jaw at the nerve plexus between the jaw and ear. or then again you could grab the lapel at the collar with the left and grab the other lapel with your right and now you have a take down with a choke.It is subjective to the attack being presented at the time.
I read your posts and see a man who seems to be so bitter at the world, you put me off with your attitude, try to lighten up a bit.

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Sorry if I was not clear, I was only asking if there was any pure TSD materials on these issues. I really was not looking for anyone to answer the questions because you are right - I was taught about those subjects last weekend. By the way, I did like your explanations.

Certainly the people who have cross-trained may be aware of these things but does TSD have the curriculum. Is TSD a complete system or do we need "shotokan" for example to help us understand TSD.

Again I was just looking for anyone to show me that TSD "officially" teaches this stuff or is the only way to learn these things is from other Arts or from TSD people who have had extensive cross-training.

By the way, my wife of 26 years thinks my biggiest problem is that I am tooo "happy go lucky". I must admit my intensity and directness can be misunderstood as anger in written form but believe me, I really do not have an angry bone in body. I will work more on writing skills.

Tang Soo!
Dave

Hello Dave , what a great name by the way , lol . This is just one of the reasons why i left TSD . Some of the other reasons why I left are money hungry instructors , & ego maniacs . I would not say to train in Shotokan , you would be pretty much in the same boat . You have to remember , Funakoshi sought out to popularize Karate . He did so through the univirsities . I believe he was just carrying on w/ Itosu's dream . If I were you , I would look into Shorin Ryu , or perhaps Seikichi Odo's Okinawan Kenpo . You might wanna look into Kobayashi Shorin Ryu , as I believe they might be the closest , to what you are doing , along w/ Okinawan kenpo . Be warry though , as you will find that within the U.S. there are several people that are charltans within those styles , that have promoted themselves , & are just out to make a quick buck . My advice , go to Okinawa . If you would like some more information about those Ryu Ha I mentioned , please contact me privately , & I will do my best to give you any info you may be looking for , or to help you find a descent instructor . Take care , & hope to hear from you soon .

David Somers
www.angelfire.com/fl5/okinawagojuryu
www.okinawagojuryu.org

Two Daves,

Dave D, I am glad to hear it is just my take on your writing, and thanks for the compliment. 26yrs?? darn boy, I'm only at 13yrs 6months 26 days 5hrs 37 mins

David S , I have pointed out a few times that Okinawan Karate is where Dave D would have to look, not Shotokan you keep dangling that carrot and you never know, but then I don't know of any good Okinawan schools close to me, then again, I have just gone back to training in Hapkido after a hiatus of a few yrs, so...

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

I want to thank David Doty for hosting me in his school this past weekend. We had a great time training and learning. He has a great group of students and they were very receptive to the material that I presented.

When I teach my own students or travel to teach others, I always want the participants to understand that I am just another guy training for the love of the art, and those who are interested in teaching me and or learning from me. It all goes hand in hand. You always learn the most when you are teaching, and without students to teach I would have taken up tennis or some other activity years ago.

I didn’t make up the stuff that I teach… I’m not that smart. The material that I teach has been taught to me by a great many instructors that are far superior to me. I am thankful to them for having allowed me to be their student and continue to share relationships with the vast majority of the instructors that I have learned from over the last 33+ years.

By cross training in systems from Okinawa and Japan that use the same hyung/kata that Hwang Kee chose to incorporate in the development of Tang Soo Do, and studying their Bunkai, Hanka and Oyo, I have been able to appreciate these hyung/kata that much more.

As I have discussed with many instructors across the country that were/are mainstream Tang Soo Do practitioners that have chosen to cross-train in the Okinawan and Japanese systems, they have had the same eye opening experience that I have had, and it has all been good…

When I first started to communicate with David Doty he was uncertain as to his future with Tang Soo Do. I explained to him that if you take Hwangs statements from his book Tang Soo Do Soo Bahk Do to heart, it is all Tang Soo Do. It doesn’t matter what system you took the technique from. It doesn’t matter if the system is Korean, Japanese, Okinawa, Chinese or if it originated at the North Pole. Hwang stated clearly that Tang Soo Do (in his mind) was the ultimate martial art because (in his mind) Tang Soo Do denies no technique. If it can be used for personal defense, it doesn’t matter if it is a hand or foot technique, if it uses a body part, a stick, a bladed implement or a 16inch canon, and shown on page 6 as he displayed a picture of a tank. It’s all Tang Soo Do.

The problem comes when you, as an organization, standardize yourself to death and choose not to allow any variation in your technique or applications. To standardize you system to this point is to make what you teach a “DEAD ART”.

When I show something to G.M. CHUNG IL KIM that came from an Okinawan or Japanese system, he doesn’t get angry with me, or tell me that I can’t do or teach it with/to my students. If it works, teach it and use it.

Many of you that are on this site already know the material that I teach, and I’m sure that many of you know it as well as I do or better. David is so excited about the material that I shared with him and his students that he wants to expose all of you to me at our next scheduled seminar that will be held the weekend of July 29th at his location in Pittsburg.

I would like to join him in inviting anyone who is interested in sharing good training and the true Tang Soo Do spirit to come and get together for this seminar.

It is not my goal or interest to pick up schools to become members of my organization, or to give out rank to anyone as a result of working with me. You have your respective organizations, and you are under the direction of your instructor. As I have demonstrated with my own history with G.M. C.I. Kim, I’m not changing affiliation and neither should you.

It’s all about the sharing of good technique and establishing good relationships with other Tang Soo Do practitioners from around the country.

We will have information available shortly for those who are interested.

Have a great day,

TANG SOO!!!

Master Penfil

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Master Penfil, Do you know Master Henry or have you ever met him? I ask because you mention Grandmaster C.I. Kim and Master Henry is Grandmaster Kim's senior student. He has some great pictures of Grandmaster Kim up on his site.

http://www.classicmartialarts.com/Pictures.html

What you mentioned is very true about Grandmaster Kim not controlling what works for you regardless of where it came from. I might attend the July seminar.

Yours in Tang Soo,
Jim

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Master penfil...first greetings sir,
Was wondering your thoughts on The George Dillman method? and if you ever attended any of his clinics?
Next...are you from the Detroit area? I believe we spoke before. if so are you familure with shihan Robert (Bobby Bell) of Detroit? when it comes to bunkai the man is amazing! being shotokan his applications of the kata heian (Pyung Ahn)) and the other katas Hyungs are the best I've seen. I trained many years with Bobby, his knowledge of bunkai made me open my eyes and take a deeper look. in 2002 my dear friend (best friend) Master bell had a stroke...he was recovering and visited my home three times doing much better! but my life was not...and through a divorce and move I lost touch with him. we allways seemed to find each other...and with my school open a year now and not hearing from him..my only hopes are he is ok. Do you know of him? and finally if your in the area I would love to spend a day or afternoon with you and exchange ideas. things I was taught regarding our Tang Soo Do Hyung.
yours in Tang Soo Do
Dave Z

Martial Art Style Michigan Tang Soo Do Karate & fitness center

Master Zacker,
I have heard about you from many Tang Soo Do practitioners over the years… It has all been good!!!
I am surprised that we have not crossed paths till now. I would love to meet with you and share our experience. This is what the true Tang Soo Do spirit is all about.

I teach at the:
JCC-Jewish Community Center
6600 West Maple Rd. (15 Mile Rd.-on the North-West corner of Drake)
West Bloomfield, MI 48322

Contact #’s 248-561-5700-Cell 248-614-3934-Office

My classes are held on Tuesday & Thursday even from 7:30 to 9:30 for all students.
I also teach at the same location on Monday & Wednesday mornings from 7:45 to 9:00 for some of my senior student that want extra time on the floor.

You are welcome to come in at any time. I can arrange to meet with you at you school as well.

I have never met with Mr. Dillman, but I do have his tapes and books. I have had the opportunity to attend 2 seminars taught by Sensei Vince Morris, and also have several of his books and tapes. They were both trained by Oyata Sensei in Okinawa. I have Oyata on tape as well. Sensei Morris trained with Oyata Sensei for 6 years in his Dojo in Okinawa, after first achieving 6th Dan in Shotokan in England. His presence and manner on the floor is excellent. You learn a great deal with out having to concern yourself with being injured by accident as a result of being his uke’.

Tuite’ and Kyusho have always been an important piece of the puzzle that we call martial arts. The vast majority of practitioners that I have worked with have never been exposed to it. I have been working with these principles and concepts since 1986, when I was exposed to them through Sensei Bob White, from Northville, Michigan. Sensei White had, along with several of my Isshinryu instructors, become students of Oyata Sensei.

I know Robert (Bobby) Bell by name only. We never had the chance to meet. I will speak with the senior instructors here in town that I am involved with to see if I can locate him for you.

Please contact me at your earliest convenience so we can arrange a time to meet…

I’m sure that this will be the start of a solid relationship!!!


All the best,

TANG SOO!!!

Master Penfil

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Hi Jim,
I am familiar with Master Henry, though we have not met. Do you know where he is currently located?
I tried to go to the site that you mentioned in your posting, but it didn’t work for me. Please look at the posting again to see if it was correctly typed in.
I am working with a private student of Grand Master C.I. Kim’s in Chicago to build a new web site in his honor. It would be nice to have Master Henry mentioned and pictured on this site as well.
Where are you located? If you are in Michigan I would love to have you as a guest in my class. If not, and you are able to make it to the seminar in Pittsburg, I’ll look forward to meeting you there!!!

Please take a moment to contact me either through email at: jaypenfil@sbcglobal.net
Or by phone at: 248-561-5700-Cell 248-614-3934-Office

I’ll look forward to hearing from you soon…

Have a great day,

TANG SOO!!!

Master Penfil

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Thank you for the kind words my new friend!
I will contact you asap!
I live in Commerce twp Mi (Walled Lake)
My school is in the downriver Detroit area Lincoln Park Mi.
Michagan Tang Soo Do
Tang Soo Do Martial Arts Society
Karate & Fitness center
1678 Fort Street Lincoln Park MI 48146
phone 313 671-2576
I put in long hours at the school im there from 2pm to 9pm and teach all classes throughout the afternoon and evening....We will get together and form im certain a lasting friendship, so much to share with you!....ill e mail you!
yours in the spirit of Tang Soo Do!
Dave Z

Martial Art Style Michigan Tang Soo Do Karate & fitness center

Master Penfil, this is Master Murphy's website:
http://www.classicmartialarts.com/

I believe it actually operated by his son, Bobby.

Master Murphy has been a valuable source on TSD history for myself and many others for some years.

JH

Thank you for this site info...

I will call you after I view it.

Have a great day,

TANG SOO!!!

Master Penfil

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

The forum content page show that there have been 122 of you that have viewed this thread so far, but there are only a small hand full of us that have responded. I would like to here from as many of you as possible, your views on this subject.

I have found over the past several months that I have been involved here that this forum is a great place to meet with other Tang Soo Do (and other style) practitioners from all over.

Please take a moment to place a response and introduce your selves to the rest of us.

Thank you,

TANG SOO!!!

Master Penfil

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Mr.Penfil,

Was wondering , do you ever come to FL ? I'm always looking for good people to train/share w/ & learn from .

David Somers

I have not been in Florida since last year for the fouth of July. If you are interested, we can plan a trip.
Please contact me directly to discuss the opportunity.

Email: jaypenfil@sbcglobal.net
Office:248-614-3934
Cell: 248-561-5700

I will look forward to speaking with you.

Master Penfil

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

I'd love to meet you , but right now I dont have a Dojo , so it would be hard to host anything . However , if you ever come to FL , let me know .

David

We will be having a seminar in Pittsburg ithe weekend of July 29th at Dave Doty's dojang. Dave was so happy with the seminar that I taught there last week that he wants to open this one to all who are interested.

Can you make the trip up for that weekend?

I may be bringing Sifu Bruce Silver with me as well. Sifu Silver and I started training together in 1975 in Tang Soo Do. He took a liking to Wing Chun, found a Sifu here in Michigan that had been training under Francis Fong, and later became a student to Ip Ching (Yip Man's Younger son). The principles of the Wing Chun system compliment Karate systems very well.

This seminar is going to focus on Bunkai, Hanka and Oyo of the Giecho, Pyong Ahn, Bassai and Naihanchi Hyung/Kata.

It will be a great weekend, with a great deal of time spent on the floor. During the seminar last weekend we spent between Friday evening and Saturday, approximately 16 hours training. Approximately 11 hours made it on to tape.

Contact me directly if you have a little time. I'd like to talk with you...

Have a great day,

TANG SOO!!!

Master Penfil

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

I have been around for a bit, started Martial Arts when I was five and took my first Tang Soo Do class when I was in Georgia and knew that this style was for me. I too have looked for many other instructors (though remaining loyal to my own) to gain an insight into the meaning behind Hyungs.

What I often found was a difference in teaching styles often results in this problem. Many of the more traditional Korean instructors I have studied under preferred not to answer my questions directly or give me every application of every move contained in forms. I at times wondered if it was simply because they were "clueless" when I was younger, but soon realized it was a different teaching method than I was used to. Many of the traditional Korean Masters believed that it was my job to analyze the techniques and discover the meaning behind them on my own. The belief as I was told by Grand Master Myung Seok Seo was that in this way I would remember it, because I had worked at the discovering of the meaning. Under this system, information comes out slowly and through exploration guided by the Master Instructor.

The other system is the one my Instructor of 22 years (ever since I was 11) Master Duke Tirschel uses and that is he explains what each move does and insisted we visualize (see ourselves) performing the move. If you can't visualize the move, then how can you do it properly? He didn't hold information back and gave us numerous applications behind the moves.

Having experienced both systems, I must admit a preference to the latter as I am not always the most patient person, however the former works as well, provided the instructor doesn't leave you "clueless" in the end and guides your journey of discovery.

Jamie Yowell
4th Dan

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do