Bunkai .....I've been interested and studied this for many years, training with shotokan and aki jitsu masters in the search of applications of kata or hyung. also the study of pressure point and attacking meridans. disrupting the flow of positive chi (ki) by striking certain pressure points along these meridans. and no I have never seen or read any of dillmans work. The understanding of the kata hyung and its applications can change the way one practices and performs hyung or kata. I,ve felt its effects! having my arm go numb, and I teach this but to certain students and at certain levels. I held a class last evening where i demonstrated the power of the front stance lifting a student off the floor and driving the student backward a few feet landing him on his backside with a slight touch of the palm. but i dont teach this to all students....heres my question
and its an honest one...when do you feel the student is ready to learn...let me refrase this...relearn kata or hyung and its application. (this is the heart of kata!) at what point in thier training? Ive often thought of conducting seminars and god knows with a new school i could use the revenue...i just dont think everyone is ready to begin this journey...
any thoughts?
MD

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do / www.michigantsd.com

Great post Sir. I agree, I would not teach any student, any technique, at any time, if I had any suspicion whatsoever they may not use the knowledge properly. But given that, let me answer your question in 2 parts.

First , concerning pressure points or what the Japanese call the “Kakushi waza” or (hidden techniques) within a kata. I feel the Kakushi waza should only be entrusted to students with the highest moral and ethical character and only when the instructor and student has had a long term trusting relationship and the student has reached the Black Belt level.

The second part of my answer is that the Oyo and Bunkai should be taught from day one. We should be trying to give the most complete picture we can to each student, depending on their ability to integrate the technical. So if a student struggles with new forms they may only be taught the most basic sequence and technique and then, as they master the Hyung, that they can be given some additional insight.

On the other hand, the Henka (variations of Oyo and Bunkai) most likely can not be taught to the student just learning the Form but only after they have developed some mastery of the standard Bunkai and Oyo.

I do not think we actually need to re-learn the Hyung as our Oyo, Bunkai, and Henka develop, we are just adding additional understanding or some might say, realizing the full beauty of the Hyung that was always there.

Ok Master Penfil, if I totally butchered what you taught us a few weeks ago, please feel free correct with prejudice.

Tang Soo!
Dave

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Hi Mr Doty,
This is a touchy subject in a sense and im not putting down my art Tang Soo Do! Im not certain due to the changes between say for instance the heian kata and the pyung ahn hyung...in Tang Soo Do certain alterations were made withing the movement of the hyung which lead me to believe The pressure point applications were either not known or left out. If I were a betting man, I would have to go with the Not Known. Heres why I say one relearns the hyung! and why bunkai is important but without knowledge of pressure points and meridians the practitionist is still left without the whole picture. First lets look at heian ni dan...(our pyung ahn Ee dan)as it was taught to me. the opening sequence of movements in Pyung ahn Ee dan....right hand high block, left hand block....wrong...neither is a a block! the right hand traps the attackers arm locking on...the left hand is actually a strike to the Mikizuki (jaw) ok there you have bunkai....but at what percise point along the jaw line do you strike? ahhh now we need to know pressure points. just striking any point along the jaw line will not have the same effect as the pressure point strike within this hyung that will block the flow of chi and do severe damage to the point. imagaine pyung ahn Ee Dan looking left, now bring both hands up into the opening movement...look at your left hand (fist)with your thumb facing you turn your wrist now counter clockwise to its full exstent! your hand in a fist with the knuckle of the index finger protruding out slightly...now you strike the point along the jaw line (this is the point where the muscle is located when you chew). place your fingers on your jaw...grind your teeth as if you are chewing...you can feel this point! if done properly this causes the attacker to black out...after the pressure point strike the left hand grabs the right arm while the right strikes a point to the ribs...now the final movement in tang soo do is a horse back punch..heres why I say we relearn the hyung...it just doesent work! rather then a horse punch...as in heian Ni dan Kata the left arm crosses the chest of the attacker your left leg is behind the attackers right leg...you slam the attacker backward and off his feet with your left forearm his right arm which you still have full control of (elbow comes down across your left knee breakin the arm).. Its very difficult to put down on this format...I hope you can follow what im getting at...much easier to show in person.
all of a sudden we take a new look and a new apperication for kata (hyung).
In ending...Im not stating this is the only application or the correct one. as to what the intentions of the creators were in regard to bunkai
MD

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do / www.michigantsd.com

Interesting footnote,
George Dillman will be in my town next week,
I just recieved my invite, I'll be there!
I will keep you posted.
MD

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do / www.michigantsd.com

Interesting , the begining of a discussion on what is missing yet very little expertise on the subject to allow for a viable exchange

Greetings to all,
Dave Doty:
You did a good job of explaining it to a degree. I will elaborate.

Dave Zacker:
You have some good questions, and bring up some serious concerns, but you are missing a serious piece of the puzzle. I will try and explain this in a way that will bring to light one of the most important issues with most systems today…

Truth: Based on what you have posted here this past year, I believe that you will find this posting right on the money.


Before we get in to the issue of when to teach Kyusho and Tuite’ to our students, let’s understand that each system has developed their own way of performing the Hyung/Kata. The basic movements are taught using different structure.

I have cross-trained in Tang Soo Do, Shotokan, Motobu-Ha S h i t o Ryu and Isshinryu for over 33 years. I have learned each systems variant of the Hyung/Kata and understand the principles and philosophies of movement that each system’s founding father used to develop his system. Among the most important things that you need to learn in order to be able to make sense of this is the mechanical workings of the basics that were compiled to create the Hyung/Kata in the first place.

To make a blanket statement as to how the technique is supposed to be performed is wrongful. When I am learning a new system (new to me), I ask a myriad of questions that help me to establish why that system does what they do, the way that they do it, as apposed to the way that other systems do it. This also tells me if the instructor that I am working with knows the material on the level that I am seeking, or is the kind of instructor that has just been parroting what he had been shown for X-number of years without having a clear understanding himself.

When I am teaching Tang Soo Do, and I am working with a specific Hyung/Kata, the execution of the form does not change for the different Bunkai. We will ALWAYS execute the Hyung/Kata the same way. What changes is internal. What our mind is seeing as we move from technique to technique. What is the Oyo that we are seeing in our mind as we apply the Bunkai and move smoothly through the Hyung/Kata from start to finish; the changes are internal, the external should always remain the same.

The same holds true when I am teaching the other systems. The Hyung/Kata are as Dave Zacker stated; “The Heart of the System”. To change the way that you execute the Hyung/Kata to match the Bunkai is to change the system. Once you do this, you are no longer teaching a “System”.

For those of you that have been to one of my seminars, you will recall that in the process of explaining the way that different systems work, I will do the same Hyung/Kata the way that each system teaches them, and explain what system’s variant I am performing so you can see how the different founding father’s established their “Way”. I don’t say, here are several ways that “Tang Soo Do” can be performed. That would be an incorrect way to present this information.

Dave Zacker, you state here;
Bunkai...I've been interested and studied this for many years, training with Shotokan and Aiki Jitsu masters in the search of applications of kata or hyung; also the study of pressure point and attacking meridians.

When you say: pressure point and attacking meridians, it is the same as going into a Greek restaurant and asking for “Rice Pilaf”. In Greek, Pilaf means Rice. You are asking for “Rice-Rice”. The meridians are all pressure points. They all run along the nerve lines. When you are discussing for example, the “Heart Line” as it runs along the inside of the forearm you are working the medial nerve. The “Triple Warmer” that run along the back of the triceps is actually the Ulna Nerve.

I began training with PPCT (Pressure Point Control Tactics) with Sensei Dan Bartley in 1985 when I had my school in Berkley, Michigan. Sensei Bartley was a 4th Dan in Isshinryu at that time, and a Sergeant with the Troy, Michigan Police Department. That was my first experience with Kyusho Jutsu and Tuite’ Jitsu. As I have trained with my Okinawan instructors over the years I have established a deeper understanding of these systems and their applications.

Dave Zacker, you also state:
I held a class last evening where I demonstrated the power of the front stance lifting a student off the floor and driving the student backward a few feet landing him on his backside with a slight touch of the palm.

When instructors don’t have a clear understanding of these techniques, and have control issues and choose to demonstrate these techniques on others (their Students), accidents (unnecessary injuries) occur. You should not be experimenting on your students. I will not take this section any further…

Dave Zacker, here is your first question:
But I don’t teach this to all students....here’s my question and it’s an honest one...when do you feel the student is ready to learn...let me rephrase this... relearn kata or hyung and its application. (This is the heart of kata!) At what point in their training?

Dave Doty’s response was a good one:
The second part of my answer is that the Oyo and Bunkai should be taught from day one. We should be trying to give the most complete picture we can to each student, depending on their ability to integrate the technical. So if a student struggles with new forms they may only be taught the most basic sequence and technique and then, as they master the Hyung, that they can be given some additional insight.

Keep in mind that when you are teaching the Hyung/Kata in the beginning, the most important thing is to secure for the student a sense of correct technique. If the student is given a solid understanding of what the incoming weapon is (The Oyo), and how you want them to deal with it (The Bunkai), they will develop a solid foundation. You can take them through the higher levels of Bunkai as they mature in the art and they are ready for those levels. First help them to establish the foundation, the rest will follow.


Dave Zacker, your posting closed with:
I’ve often thought of conducting seminars and god knows with a new school I could use the revenue...I just don’t think everyone is ready to begin this journey...
any thoughts?
MD

When a need for quick revenue building is the reason for establishing seminars, there is a problem. You have to first have a serious level of knowledge and understanding in order to teach this material. This isn’t simply a matter of showing students (yours or someone else’s) a Hyung/Kata. If you show these techniques incorrectly you can cause serious damage, and in some cases, death. You are not on a level that would merit your teaching seminars on this subject.

Use the time that you have with your students to improve their foundation with regard to the execution of their basics and their use of stances. They need to be able to move from stance to stance with proper transitioning of their weight. They have to develop an understanding of hip rotation, breathing, distance and timing. Once they have these factors in check, you can consider the next step in their education…




Yours in Tang Soo Do,

Master Jay S. Penfil

TANG SOO!!!

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

I am... ambivalent at best when it comes to pressure points, meridians, etc. Anyone know of any kata/bunkai/oyo seminars in the DC area?

John

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Hi John,
If you would like to set up a seminar for your school, I travel around the country teaching seminars on weekends.

Contact me directly to discuss this opportunity further...


Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S.Penfil

TANG SOO!!!

Martial Art Style TangSoo Do