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Show ME the MONEY!!!!!!

I signed my step-daughter up at John Godwin's Korean Martial Arts Institute in Newark, Delaware. They (using my step-daughters love for martial arts) talked us into signing her up for the higher level casses. After about a year, she began coming down with severe headaches during or after classes. We have been fighting with the school to release us from the contract. They seem t not care about the fact that our family doctor ordered my step-daughter to stop attendig classes. They only seem to care about the money.

Are all martial arts schools the same, or do others actually care about the student's health?

Martial Art Style It's all about the MONEY!!!

Re: Show ME the MONEY!!!!!!

I am sorry to hear about your daughter's problem with head aches, I hope she will be ok.

I have a friend in a similar situation where she is signed up for classes and cannot complete the contract, but the school will not release her from the contract so sh is paying for classes she is not taking. I don't like that type of school, what they did is ,locking you into a contract then telling you that your kid is doing so well she should be bumped up to the next level, here is a new contract, pay this new amount and it will be added on top of the old contract, you still need to pay off the old contract, plus this new one, what a crock of Bok Choi.

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Show ME the MONEY!!!!!!

SHOW ME THE RESPONSIBILITY! Here is my post based on the information you provided. If you add critical information to the story, I may need to revise my post.

First of all I am very sorry to hear that your daughter is ill, but let's look at the other side. You signed the contract so it is 100% your responsibility to fully understand everything you sign.

If you can’t understand contractual language then it was your responsibility to get some help before you make a financial commitment that you can not meet.

It was your responsibility to negotiate the “outs” such as moving, illness, and even death. Some other outs should also had been added like what if your daughter was physically, mentally or sexually harassed. What if she is assigned a new instructor, thE school location moved, the hours changed, etc etc.

You have three options – the FIRST is to quit crying and honor the contract you signed.

The SECOND is to go to every class and in a gentle and loving way, educate all the other students and parents about negotiating the right “outs” in their contracts. If the club is smart – they will release you… just to get rid of you.

Most “health club” (includes martial arts schools), related contracts are breakable for numerous reasons so check your state law… so option THREE is get a lawyer to write a letter… it will cost you about $250. You may be lucky to be in state that has lawas to protect you from yourself.

The club will not fight it, but they may try to ruin your credit rating and of course your lawyer will warn them of those actions.

I do not do contracts because I do not want people at my school who do not want to be there. I especially do want their money if they don’t want to be here.

But I can understand why those who make their living in this business need to have them. There are extremely legitimate reasons for a school to have contracts - they are making a commitment and they want an equal committment from you.

It is your duty to make sure it is a fair bargain. Buyer Beware. Don't blame them - blame yourself.

Tang Soo,
Dave

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Show ME the MONEY!!!!!!

SHOW ME THE RESPONSIBILITY! Here is my post based on the information you provided. If you add critical information to the story, I may need to revise my post.

First of all I am very sorry to hear that your daughter is ill, but let's look at the other side. You signed the contract so it is 100% your responsibility to fully understand everything you sign.

If you can’t understand contractual language then it was your responsibility to get some help before you make a financial commitment that you can not meet.

It was your responsibility to negotiate the “outs” such as moving, illness, and even death. Some other outs should also had been added like what if your daughter was physically, mentally or sexually harassed. What if she is assigned a new instructor, thE school location moved, the hours changed, etc etc.

You have three options – the FIRST is to quit crying and honor the contract you signed.

The SECOND is to go to every class and in a gentle and loving way, educate all the other students and parents about negotiating the right “outs” in their contracts. If the club is smart – they will release you… just to get rid of you.

Most “health club” (includes martial arts schools), related contracts are breakable for numerous reasons so check your state law… so option THREE is get a lawyer to write a letter… it will cost you about $250. You may be lucky to be in state that has lawas to protect you from yourself.

The club will not fight it, but they may try to ruin your credit rating and of course your lawyer will warn them of those actions.

I do not do contracts because I do not want people at my school who do not want to be there. I especially do want their money if they don’t want to be here.

But I can understand why those who make their living in this business need to have them. There are extremely legitimate reasons for a school to have contracts - they are making a commitment and they want an equal committment from you.

It is your duty to make sure it is a fair bargain. Buyer Beware. Don't blame them - blame yourself.

Tang Soo,
Dave

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Re: Show ME the MONEY!!!!!!

Oh my god!
Dan, let me assure you there are many of us who arent in it for the money....Ive been in this art now 38 years and run a succesful studio in Michigan and head my own International organization. Its impossible for us to know or fortel the future! The Day I use contracts is the day I sell out...and I will never do that. I dont use contracts...and never will, now those of my brothers that do use them NEVER hold the student to them! exspecially in the case of this student...we are teachers of martial arts! we love this art and love what we do, and our students are special to us each and every one! we are here to teach them a lifestyle...to teach them the positive things in this so negitive world and material world we struggle to live in...we do far more then teach them to punch or kick....I have mentally challenged students who teach me far more then i ever could teach them! I have ADD & ADHD kids who when i first took them on couldnt sit still, one young man use to climb up the kicking bag...he was on medication...now hes one of my best students! mom has took him off his medication...this is my payment!....sure we all need to keep the doors open...but we must also realise not all will continue on with the lifestyle...as teachers of martial arts we only need to give our students 100pct of oueselves...and if we touch a life.....thats payment in full. your either a Mc Dojang and a business man or your a teacher of martial arts...and to the students and parents...IT IS THEY who can tell! and if your a teacher they will never leave nor ever forget you!
Mr Doty Im certain will respond...
Respectfully,
David A Zacker kwan jang
head Michigan Tang Soo Do
Founder / The Tang Soo Do Martial Arts Society

Martial Art Style www.michigantsd.com

Re: Show ME the MONEY!!!!!!

Nope sorry Dave,

I cannot agree with your post.(exept where you say you don't do contracts)
I don't see the problem of releasing the contract at the least because of the medical prognosis.

Sorry but this is my opinion of course, Any good self respecting person who has learned what Honor & Integrity mean, and who has at least a Minimum of Moral Standards, would immediately release these people from the contract. case closed.

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Re: Show ME the MONEY!!!!!!

Well...quid pro quo.

First....we ALL use contracts....just most of us use 'verbal' contracts.

Second....sometimes the school is not the 'holder' of the contract, but rather a billing company. Most billing companies INSIST upon contracts....and they make it difficult for even the school owner to get a student's release. Why? Because they as...eh hem...professionals in the recreation field know how fickle consumers are and how soft hearted most teachers are. Thus...they make it hard for even the school instructor to void a contract.

That said....most school owners DO have a way to 'buy out' the contract...and if they check...they can come up with a figure they can offer to you.

I used a billing company ONE time...and I'll never let people like that near my schools again. I've bought out contracts on several students...a few out of my own pocket....just to resolve situations like this.

NOw...having said all of that...I am still curious and suspicious about the 'reason' posted for wanting out. How have your established a causactive relationship between the child's headaches and participation in that particular program? That is crucial to your being able to point to the 'health reason' as your justification for breech.

Lately...and I can't believe I'm doing this...but Dave Doty is correct in that you did enter into a contractual obligation and you should have read the document thoroughly and posed questions before sigining. However, I also understand the tactics used by such schools to get you to sign up...and quickly...and without giving a lot of thought to what you are signing up for. Often the 'prospect' is 'seduced' by the modern facility, the presentation of a 'so called' professional appearance, and the 'we all love you...come and have some Koolaide' mentality of the 'staff'.

It really is hard to feel sorry for the victim...when you take into account all the factors.

Contracts are bad news. Period. If someone asked you to sign a contract for lessons...you should run screaming from the building.

Look...if you want to run a school...mind that word...and you know you need tuition to cover a given semester...then tell them up front...this is how much the tuition is for the semester. No we don't do monthly...no we don't do discounts. This is a 'private school' and even if you stop coming after the start of the sememster...after so much time in our investment in teaching you must be covered. Thus...after a certain date...the tuition must be paid and paid in full. If you can't afford all that money at once...might I recommend you look into financing on your own. A personal note at YOUR bank or you can probably obtain an even better rate through a credit card using one of their 'courtesy checks' (which we will accept as payment). Nonetheless...the tuition must be paid...as this is not a 'GOVERNMENT' school.

And that, ladies and gentlemen....is the true nature of the beast.

I use verbal contracts...month to month. You don't pay me this month....don't be surprised when I insist on being paid next month double. After all...you DO owe me the money. If you want to quit. Quit. It would be nice if you told me. But it ain't necessary. Simply stop showing up and sucking up the air in the room that could be used by a dedicated and responsible student. If you get sick. I'll understand. If you fall on hard times, I'll understand. Hell...if you just don't like the class, the training or even me...I'll understand. And if you change your mind and want to come back...I'll understand. Just pay me on time as I'm entitled to...and don't ask me to listen to your whinning....'cause I won't.

JH

Re: Show ME the MONEY!!!!!!

...come and have some Koolaide' mentality of the 'staff'.


ROFLMAO

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Show ME the MONEY!!!!!!

Not all schools are like this. I would not keep her from leaving under those circumstances at this time, but I also can see where this could be a problem for me in the future.

Some schools use a system where you sign and contract and a third party collects the money from the person. Well that third party has already paid the instructor up front. For example you sign a $2400 contract for two years, the instructor gets who knows maybe 1.8 K up front or some such. Now if the person leaves teh contract...well the third party still wants its money.

Basically, your contract may involve a 3rd party bank or some such lender...if that is the case putting yourself in a school owners shoes that now is responsible if they let you out of that contract due to no fault of their own...well how fair is it that someone who is filling his obligation now has to return a certain amount of money to the bank for letting a student out of the contract. The bank is going to want their money from someone. If not the person, the instructor, especially if it is the instructor that freed you from the contract.

Believe it or not when we get money (instructors) we pay bills, buy targets, buy boards, pay for vistors to conduct seminars, advertise....most of us don't hold money in reserve in case someone wants out of their contract.

Now, my advice would be two fold, if it is just a contract with the school, not involving another party.... then talk to them again and bring your doctors note also read the contract carefully and see if their is any clause that will let you get out of it. If it is just between you and the school and they are unreasonable (I have already stated I would let you out if it were me, even with a third party involved because having you happy is better than having you angry and giving me bad publicity would let you out even though it would cost ME the money) again just between you and the school, you can just stop paying them. Watch your credit report, challenge it instantly if they put something bad on there and if they want their money let them sue you. If they get a collection agency, get an attorney that works cheap and tell the collection agency to contact the attorney. Most likely a school will not go after you unless it is a big chain and if it ever does go to court, well with the doctors note I give you a better than average chance of winning without seeing the contract (and if I did...well I am no lawyer :), just knowing how many of them are written.

Jamie

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Show ME the MONEY!!!!!!

Ooops missed JH's post, and rehashed what he said...and didn't even do it as eloquently :)

Sorry about that.

Jamie

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Show ME the MONEY!!!!!!

This is perhaps one of the best postings that I have seen yet with regard to the information provided by everyone that responded…

Dave Doty is correct if you are the big business school looking out for #1, without regard for the individual involved,

John Hancock is correct regardless of which side of the table you are sitting on,

Bernard and Dave Zacker are in the same boat with me, as to the standpoint of always doing what is best for the student and not concerning themselves with the financial loss from the one contract.

I have likewise, never used contracts (written). As long as a student is happy and or healthy on my floor, they are going to stay. If at any given point they are not happy, or run into bad health, physically or financially, I am going to do what ever is necessary to help them. If that means saying goodbye for now (or permanently) so be it. If the student falls on hard time, I get with them to work it out so they are either paying less so they can afford to continue, or letting them continue for free until their situation improves. It’s all about the relationship, not the money.

In Michigan there are many schools that work with contracts. I have seen the fallout from many of them over the last 28 years that I have been teaching. It’s never pretty when you have to fight a legal battle over unpaid tuition. I find the time better spent helping then hurting.

G R E A T feedback from everyone!!!

TANG SOO!!!
Master Jay S. Penfil

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Show ME the MONEY!!!!!!

I bet there is another whole side to this story.

After reading all the comments, I still feel that if an ADULT can be "talked-into" something then at least they should man enough to live with the consequences.

I have been a father for 20 years and a teacher most of my life and these symptoms sound like someone who doesn't want to train anymore. Given the "avoidance" advise (not prognosis) from the Doctor to just stay away... I would speculate that the Doctor also saw this a mental problem not a physical problem.

If this is the case, I salute the school owner for honoring his word and expecting other adults to do the same.

My read is that we should be encouraging the father to display the proper honor and intergity in meeting his obligations.

Ok, let me have friends!!!!!!

Tang Soo!
Dave

Re: Show ME the MONEY!!!!!!

Dave, you are too funny…

There are students (and we have all seen them) that will use any excuse to get out of a contract (verbal or written) simply because they are lazy, or in the case of a parent dealing with a child, they don’t know how to motivate the child to progress forward in such a valuable activity as martial training. If this is the case, and there is in many cases, a third party management company that has purchased the contract from the school owner, then you are correct; the parent/student should follow through and pay the balance, or work out a buy-out.
If, on the other hand, there is a physical problem that is real and threatening, as only a doctor could attest, then there should be a provision in the contract that negates the contract under such circumstances.

But then there’s the issue of having a doctor that is afraid of being taken to court for malpractice if he/she gives consent to continue and something goes wrong. He/She may be writing the excuse letter just to keep out of court when nothing is really wrong in the first place…

I don’t think any of us have enough information on this particular case to give anything more then
“what ifs” and “maybes” and so on.

I, like our friend John Hancock, feel that for what ever reason; if a student doesn’t want to be in my class, I don’t want to force them, and if they aren’t coming to class, I don’t want their money.
(O.K. I do want their money, but only if they want me to have it!!!).

Have a great day,

TANG SOO!!!

Master Jay S. Penfil

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do