Let me briefly explain my question. I have a friend who came up with me years ago and got his black belt. He ended up injuring his back and as such about 15 years ago started heavy into pressure points and became a staunch follower of Dillman.

I am told how this point and that point will kill you if you touch this one and that and cross them here and there..this would knock me out, that will make me dizzy, this will make my liver explode, that one will give me a heart attack, this one will result in me being uglier than I already am and I must be resistant as anyone else would have been knocked out after there wrist was touched here and his knuckles wrapped the side of my neck four times...let me prove it on this guy who isn't resistant...see how easy he goes down..that is 95% of the people that go down...

Another time, my friend hit me in the chest after pleading with him (I have been through this by this point a million times and it turns into him beating on me and nothing happening except bruises-he is 15 years my senior so I humor him most of the time) and I collapsed out of breath and of course that is proof of the power of pressure points...I got up when I could pointed to a place on his chest and asked him if that was a pressure point...he said no...so I struck him with a solid reverse punch and watched him collapse to the ground out of breath despite not striking a "pressure point" using the same force he used I got the same results.

I know of pressure points, I have taught them to police and so forth for control, ones that cause pain either work or don't weather it is a rub point or push point, Grand Master Myung and Grand Master Tirschel have demonstrated them to me countless times, however whenever I meet someone that has claimed to have studied with Dillman or so forth there are all these secret touches that if they were to perform them would kill me so they can't do them...or they would knock me out but not knowing how to get knocked out it would be too dangerous for me (have always wondered how does one know how to be knocked out..you go unconscious and then it doesnt matter what you know) so they have to show me on someone that has been knocked out before (doesn't help probably that I inform them if my brain slams against my brain cage that doesn't count that creates a knockout almost every time due to trauma and when I come to we will not be on friendly terms).

Anyway, this is something I have been interested in, but have been unimpressed thus far with people I have met claiming knowledge. Master Myung was great with pressure points, but they caused pain when he held them or the effect was instantaneous from a precise blow striking or grabbing what he called "vital" points. However, this hit this point it activates this point and you hit that point it activates this point, which then causes this point to become sensitized which leads to certain death if you tap this point sort of thing I haven't been convinced of.

I am not saying Dillman is a Con or a fraud, I do not know one way or another. I am saying I am curious. In everyone's opinion is there anything to this or is it just hocus pocus and mumbo jumbo? And if there is something to it, is there someone anyone can recommend that I could see to be convinced and then learn?

Jamie

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Hello Jamie,

I have some little experience with pressure points thru HKD, and while they do work , ie, make your knees buckle, numb your arm, they do not work on everyone the same, some people will not react to some of the points, so I was taught to be aware of the locations, attack specific points during an engagement and strike, press (at the proper angle which is very important) or rub as the case may be , but not to depend on them . So we flow thru the attacks and hopefully most of the time we hit the points just right and get the response we want, which is really , hit a point right and it weakens or loosens the joint we want to attack it will make that joint more vulnerable to the attack, or buckles the knee to help set up other attacks.

I know the points will trigger your knees to buckle, had it happen too many times not to believe it, same for deadening the arms or dropping you right to the floor, tapping like mad(haha) one my hdk instructor like is to make you danceon your toes then either sweep you or throw you.(oooch)

I know some people who swear by Mr Dillman and some who don't believe his system, I have not been to a seminar of his to judge. As for the knock outs yes I believe they can work, I know the theory behind it, I would like to see the real thing up close before I jump on a box though. I have not seen the no touch knock out, and that one I don't quit believe...yet

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Thanks.

I too have experienced things that make me realize that pressure points are real and do work. For example, I was doing Ro Hai and there is this place where you cover your rear calf. Well, it didn't make sense to me so I covered my knee with my foot instead of my calf figuring that I was protecting the knee it made more sense to me. Well I was told 3 times that it was supposed to be on my calf and for whatever reason I did not listen. Master Myung yelled freeze the next time I did the move and came and struck me at a point on the calf that sent an electric shock up my body and caused my leg to go limp. I found myself on the ground and in the same moment learned that it was protecting a vital point from attack and not the knee.

I am convinced at some of the reflex strikes on the vital points and definitely the pain strikes and nerve center strikes. I guess where I get lost are this touch knockouts and touch turn off his kidney's and three touch kills.

I have heard that much of this information can be found in acupuncture, in other words what heals can be used to destroy. I am doing some research into it now. My goal I guess is to objectively try to discover what is true and what is not true.

I too have not met Dillman only watched tapes of his seminars and they appeared to me to be staged. Not saying they are...I do not know, it is just that is the impression I came away with from every tape. It looked too easy, which might mean it either is really that easy if you know what points to touch or it was indeed staged.

Thanks Master Redfield for your input, it helps a lot and adds to the information I am collecting as I try to sort through this.

Jamie

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

It is real. Come to my Tang Soo Do Hyung Seminar in July featuring Master Jay Penfil and you will meet SupremeMaster Roger Miller and he will make you a beleiver in less than 5 seconds.

Yes, there are those people who are "nerve dead", I have one in my school. Nerve dead people think they have an advantage but they are actually worst off - Why.

The nerve dead people can not properly feel the pressure that is about to break their wrist so we are forced to continue the attack until their bones snap. Ouch!!!

Would you rather lose the fight with broken bones or lose the fight by conceding that you messed with the wrong person.

If you have ever broken a bone - you know that you unless the "PCP" has kicked in, you are in BIG BIG trouble of winning that fight.

Tang Soo!
Dave

I have met Mr. Dillman. I have been to a couple of his seminars...and I have some of his videos (tedious as they are). Mr. Dillman is a charismatic individual who knows how to keep a room's attention. He does know what he teaches...and I have been hit by strikes that I wouldn't have expected to have had the effect they obviously had. However...I also wasn't actively resisting or protecting myself when they were demonstrated. Mr. Dillman squeezes and hits these points very, very, very hard. So you have to factor that in too. I also have trained with some Kempojitsu guys...and met Master Oyata (they man who actually taught Mr. Dillman what he knows). I have seen Mr. Oyata in action...and he is very highly skilled at doing 'point strikes' taken from movenments in the forms. So...bottom line...there definitely IS something to this. However...it has never been proven that any type of Golden Bell, Iron Shirt, Combat Ki can/cannot overcome/disperse the effects of these strikes. Something I'd like to know and see studied. As to the so called 'death touch'...I find these stories exaggerated.

In recent years, Mr. Dillman has been propogating a series of lectures about development of so called 'touchless strikes'. The premise being one can project one's Ki in such concentration as to actually 'knock out' an opponent at distance without actually having to touch him. Mr. Ladd and Mr. Plyler can give more details about having witnessed such 'demonstrations'. Unfortunately, Mr. Dillmans antics in this regard seem more in keeping with the carnival tricks of evangelical 'faith healers' than with practical science. And as his interest in these activities has increased...his popularity as a speaker has become inverserly proportional.

JH

JH,

Instructors I have studied with in the past (I teach my senior students the same now) have struck 'vital' points and they too hit them very hard. The logic being if you can hit that specific point the damage or effect is magnified, but if you miss you are still doing damage because it is a solid punch or strike. IE it is like aiming for the solar plexus, if you hit it AWESOME, but if in the heat of combat you are a little off you still project power into the target and do damage.

As for the pressure points for control, I have seen them and use them.

When you speak JH is this the same thing happening above, just by a different name?

On the subject of touchless knockouts...I have heard stories of the ancient Hwa Rang Do knights doing such things...projecting Ki and killing without touching, but I think they are legends. It seems to me Ki like any energy needs to be in contact with an object to transfer and the laws of physics govern these things. While my mind is open to the fact I do not know everything, this would have to be demonstrated and explained for me to understand until then I like you remain extremely skeptical and put such things in the realm of fantasy and legend until it is proven to me or explained in such a way I can duplicate the feat described.

Jamie

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

JH,

The premise behing the 'uniqueness' of Keupso Chirigi (pressure point striking) is that you merely need to hit the specified points at the specified time to cause the desired effect. It should not take an extraordinary strike in terms of power...only accuracy of skill. However, most demonstration I see they SLAM the so called point. My contention is...that is not skill. Any brute can hammer away at you...and the effect may have more to do with impact shock than Ki effects. If I hit you in the solar plexus...of course it will stun you...unless I just tap it. But my hitting hard is not mystical nor magical...simply muscular. It is raw force and common physics and not mysticism or high skill. If I hit you in the chest with a sledge hammer...I get an effect too. If I hit you in the chest with a bean bag shot from a .12 guage shotgun...I get an even better effect and the only energy I personally had to put out was the strength to pull the trigger and recoil shock of the gun to my shoulder. My point is...I am not impressed by 'heavy hitting' of 'points'. I am impressed by accurate manipulation of points with speed and not necessarily heavy impacts. I have seen Oyata do this....and cause unconciousness and seizures. Mr. Dillman...on the other hand....slams his entire weight into the technique. And yet...conversely...he now claims to being doing 'touchless knockouts'. Unfortunately....these only seem to work on his own students who have been 'trained' out to react to being knocked out. Hmmmmm? I don't have to be the amazing Randy to see the suspicioun in that reasoning.

JH


JH

Last time I seen George Dillman it was one of the funniest things I have ever seen. I attended one of his tournaments and had to listen to his irritating voice & screeching all day long. After the tournament I went to use one of the rest rooms a small one used for school faculty. As I opened the door I heard that same screeching voice and standing at the urinal screeching was none other then George Dillman and the funny part was apparently he flooded himself down good because the urinal was mounted very high for his height at least chest level for him and had splashed back on himself. LOL was so funny and the scene he was making. He’s done a lot better with his touchless knockouts but nothing beats his above show. Well when you got to go you have to go but not into the wind or up hill like George did.

TSD,
James

JH,

Oh I agree, a light strike or touch doing damage or immobolizing an opponent would be skillful if you pulled it off. It is just none I have worked with have done it that way on the theory that should you miss the vital point you still need to hurt the guy. With this, the only thing I can say is there is most definitely a different feeling when I have been hit with the same amount of power on the point and off the point.

I guess what I am getting at, is that I have not seen except on tapes anyone using these touch knockouts. I have seen tapes were Dillman and others do them...and I have been told by some that they could do them, but not on me because it would be too dangerous.

I know the points are there, I am not convinced of the claims that you can touch this one and then that one and then another and achieve a knockout with just a touch. Though I most certainly would LOVE to be convinced and then be able to learn.

At this juncture I must admit that despite some of my friends and their admiration, I am leaning towards the fact that Dillman belongs in the realm of faith healers.

Thanks for info JH and everyone (though not sure what to make of the Urinal Story:) you all have been very helpful and I greatly appreciate it.

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

I read about a study done some time ago, where they brought an Asian Master of the "death touch" into a medical university and performed an experiment.

The setup was there were some number of people in the test group X and an equal number of people in the control group Y.

In the test group X he performed the actual "death touch" in the control group Y he performed some nonsense strike and they were told it was the death touch.

If memory serves all but one in the X group began to go into cardiac arrest and the experiment ended when the doctors determined that if they did not intervene the subjects would suffer heart failure.

In the Y group one person had symptoms and was treated ("power of suggestion") and the others were fine.

I read this story myself so I know it to be out there but I have lost the copy over the years, anyone hear about this experiment and if so know what university conducted it so that I might obtain a copy of it? I am more interested in the actual study, but will take articles if anyone knows were I can get this information again.

By the way, the findings were that likely the electrochemical energy of the heart that regulates its beating was interrupted, as a result the heart beat became unstable... The way it made since to me is that your heart is like a football thrown with a perfect spiral....but if it is tipped at the line by a defending line men it wobbles wildly and the perfect spiral becomes a lame duck.


Jamie

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do