This is a simple question but I don't know that the answer is. We all study Tang Soo Do, but are we learning to fight? Why is it that some karate people get into a street fight and get beat severely? I talked to a person who was in many street fights and he claims that it is very different from what we expect in a fight, i.e. we are not prepared. I just began the study of Kali and my teacher pokes fun at karate and Tang Soo Do in that they are not practical/effective. I dislike that about him but he is a very good teacher and generally a nice guy just opinionated. Is there any truth to his claim? I don't think any of us would like to fight GM Hwang and he uses Tang Soo Do, so that means TSD is effective right? But how would he do against a guy high on crack in the ghetto, or a gang member? They don't fight with honor, they fight dirty and with intent to kill or severely damage. It is not the type of fighting that karate was developed to defend against, or was it? And do I need to have GM Hwang's proficiency to defend myself, I know that won't happen. So what's the answer?

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Well first off, your Kali teacher , is he walking around with double sticks? no?
Maybe he is walking around with a few knives, so he is going to a fist fight with knives, kind of an advantage over the punk with just his fists. even bare handed if it is a fair, stand up fight he will be ok because the blocking trapping of kali can be used barehanded, but he would have to use his hands to punch with, disadvantage to him unless he knows how to fight with hands/ feet etc. such as a Tang Soo Do person, so take away his knives and stcks and what can he do?

Tang Soo Do, if you are going to a street fight and expect to point spar, be ready to lose, unfortunately that is what many seem to do though. Many Martial Artists think that they can go out and get into a real fight and win, without having any concept of what they learned in class and how it is applied in the real world. they may beieve that a fancy karate stance and a single punch is going to strike fear into someone, but it will only make them laugh.
The grabs the one steps, intermediates, your basic kicks and blocks(or are they blocks)these are doorways to knowledge, study these and see what they are opening you up to learn, is that a front stance with a low black? or or you grabbing someones shirt backfisting them in the face and kneeing them in the leg to offbalance them , to set them up for your barrage of hip generated punches, How can I explain it? You have be able to commit to your fight completely. full explosive power, no thinking about what if, save that for after you are looking down on the loser. commitment /power/ focus / technique, overwhelm them flow thru your techniques till the opponant is not able to harm you. As Conan Says, "Crush your enemies , see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of their woman". oops got carried away.

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

The kali teacher says that kali will work with knives, sticks barehanded etc... There are some elements of boxing so they do punch but no kicks above the knee but that probably isn't really needed. His theory is Kali will allow you to control, contain and break or severly damage.

But my assumption is more the thug who forgot his gun at home that day. The guy who has no quams about biting, gauging eye's, grabbing your nuts and trying to make them a rear-view mirror ornament. It's not so much the technique he's using but the intensity and freenzied assault. Lets face it these people are sociopaths, they don't have issues with doing a lot of things, that most of us would. I know if your or a loved ones life is on the line the circumstance changes.

Are you willing to do whatever is necessary? I mean are you going to bite an ear off if you have too? They will, and is that what limits our effectiveness? You can train situations but you can't train for that encounter with the sociopath.

So I guess what I'm getting at can a relatively normal well-adjusted person survive with just his karate? How do you feel with your skill about running into a sociopath?

Read the book "The Sociopath next door" 4% of the population are sociopaths.

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

As Master Redfield said, if you expect to point fight in a street fight no it doesn't work. But, if you are trained properly to defend yourself in such a situation, yes it works very well. I have taught police officers, Deputy Sheriffs who use it against hardened criminals in our jails...it works :) You just need to be able to apply what you learn in the sterile and controlled classroom environment into real life. Good training makes this possible.

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

I agree point fighting is a pretty poor indicator of your ability. But The argument that keeps coming up, is - would you be able to fight like that against someone with very bad intention. I don't believe we can practice for that type of person, b/c the only real way is to fight that person. I think that's a hard thing to practice for, if you don't - please give me some ideas.

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

As I stated before, yes it works, sorry your teacher pokes fun at Tang Soo Do, but he is teaching Kali, and from his point of view, of course he is not going to endorse another art over his own, and reaaly it sounds more like he is teaching more of a Penkat Silat (which Kali is a part of)if he is using punches and kicks joint locks takedowns etc, which is a really good Indonesian martial art. you will have to ask him. If anything he is not teaching you just stick fighting.

Anyway, Tang Soo Do is a fine system for the street, but you must train hard not just go thru the motions, These guys who get there ass kicked are the ones who take a minimum of classes, and think TV fight scenes are the real thing. I saw a guy do it myself, let himself get into an arguement, the dope kicked off his shoes (loss of a weapon) and got in a silly karate stance, thru a badly timed kick, and got pummeled, what a joke, these are the guys who give real MA a bad rap.

How long have you trained in each art? everything takes time. I myself have done bouncing for an Irish pub, had countless real life street fights, not proud, but ...and believe me Tang Soo Do works, Don't think that all it is , is long range high kicks, we do plenty of close in (inside personal space) attacks, locks, sweeps, throws, chokes, but as I said already, You have to be more ready more comitted,and more agressive and at he same time remove yourself(no mind) from the engagement, so you are flowing thru ,blending motion with stillness, running thru strikes,kicks, blocks, attacking the attack, reading/feeling the motion/energy of the opponant. I don't know how else to say it in words for you to understand. As you progress in Tang Soo Do,You should be able to read the intent by sight, (body positioning, weight distribution to name two) and feel( during contact with the target( once commited the person is nothing but a combination of targets), maybe someone else can explain it better.

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Mr Redfield,

I agree with your first post. I did feel that TSD was a valuable art I just was looking for valadation. I have been studying for 6 years just in TSD, and recently started this Kali class about 1 month ago. I think there are some great techniques in our art. I think there are plenty of TSD practicioners who could defend themselves. I think the question has come down to can we have the mindset needed to do what we are trained to do. We are not in the military and subject to 24/7 training. And it's the constant training that helps prepare them mentally for combat. So how do we train ourselves to have that same attitude that an attacker might have.

I mean how does Mr. F Flinstone who is an executive, has a wife kids and a dog and is always surrounded by normal well adjusted people train to fight the guy who just got out of prison and wants to kill him.

I know we need to be in the dojang and training with intent is that enough?

as for the Kali question, I believe we are studying Doce Pares, does that help?

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

If you are trained, it works. These attackers you speak of, regardless of their intent are human. Knees, arms, joints...they all break. Their eyes can be put out with fingertips just as yours and mine. When their wrists are flexed it hurts..if they are high on drugs and don't feel it the joint will still break. These monsters you speak of are in many ways over inflated. They are mortal as you and I and the same thing that hurts us will hurt them.

Here is the thing that I was taught long ago and from experience it would seem to be true. First avoid situations where you would meet these bad folks. Second, when a situation comes up...do not hesitate...do not wait...the second you know it is bad, strike first and strike hard...for in a street fight the battle is decided usually by the first person to land a solid blow.

One Steps and variations of such drills are infinitely more valuable in actual self defense ironically than even sparring. Why? Because the battle is decided in the first seconds. You do not want to wait for an attacker to attack...once you know the attack is coming or fear that it is you seize the initiative. If you wait you are at a disadvantage but counterattack with fury attacking his weaknesses. There are no rules when fighting for your survival, you must realize this. Your adrenaline will flow, in training hopefully you learned to focus this and your fight or flight reflex will make you strong if controlled.

In class if you pay attention and are taught well, you learn to analyze weaknesses in a persons posture and body position. This will tell you if you can attack the knees, groin, etc. High kicks are available, though advisable in only limited circumstances...general rule is not to kick high unless you must...

As for drills - I have many, many of them that prepare for real street defense. But, without outlining a training manual the key for you to start is first do everything with power and speed (forms) this teaches you to move, second look at drills you may do such as one-steps they should last mere seconds...you block, counter attack and done...he ends up on the ground, he ends up out, or he ends up controlled...in your simulation of course.

Finally when fighting for you life...don't worry about wrist locks and arm bars...in a life or death situation I am breaking stuff and continuing until the threat is removed and I can get away...having been in a bad scrape a time or two I can tell you that I was afraid...VERY afraid..but the training took over... No hesitation. Example: Despite facing multiple attackers (the lead one armed with a knife) intent on robbing me or worse (if I thought they were just going to rob me I would have emptied my pockets and the cash register-I was in college at the time working at a gas station) but the worse (I believed and still believed the one with the knife wanted to cut me)forced me to save myself. Now at the time I was a young black belt, but the training my instructor gave me kicked in. The varitions of one steps and such saved me allowing me to disarm the attacker, the knowledge I acquired from sparring taught me to keep one attacker in line with the others so they couldnt get me, the knowledge that I had to hurt the first guy as bad as I could so the others would know fear paid off as they lost their nerve when their leader became badly injured and fled in such a hurry that they left their leader behind and left me scared, rattled and dialing 911. (Ironically I was no where near as cool as I thought I would be, but I was unharmed and in one piece.) These things I learned in class, but when push came to shove saved my butt.

As I stated, I can collect many a story such as this from my former students who are involved in law enforcement and must restrain violent people frequently...

I hate sounding as if I am giving a testimonial...but the techniques work. The "baddies" have human bodies, the laws of physics apply, you strike them as trained and damage occurs...the biggest thing though is training your mind to understand how to apply what you have learned.

Jamie

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

I did a search on your art and it is interesting, sounds like a cool art to cross train in, good luck with it and your Tang Soo Do
http://www.docepares.net/home.html


b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

I love Tang Soo Do and have for now going on my 38th year, In the early days training was much more physical, still I believe one should cross train and learn as much as possible, gain as much knowledge as possible. Incorporate from other styles! Tang Soo Do is a living art! and this art is alive! one just has to go deeper then the normal training. Its not our instructors fault...but were taught what we know. and there is so much more to discover. our forms (hyungs) are full of bunkai and pressure point attacks along the bodies merridans....what may appear to be a choon dan kong kyuk middle punch even in basic form one may not be a punch at all! we practice basics up and down the floor thinking low block, high block, reinforced block....that were actually as we were taught adding support to our blocking arm....WRONG!!!!! its much more then that! even the spear hand kwan soo...the supporting hand under the elbow??? our opening ready stances...like bassai.....its not a ready stance! its an attack. a defensive movement! Our instructors and thier instructors had no clue as to the applications withing the kata or hyung....thus leaving us without the true knowledge within the way we practice hyung.
Tang soo do is an effective art of disipline and self defense....and it works!
MD

Martial Art Style www.michigantsd.com

MD

How would you go about finding out all that info? How can we bring that back? Is this stuff that Grandmaster Hwang Kee taught and has been forgoten or not passed down?

Where did you learn? Did you train under GM Hwang Kee or HC Hwang?

Thanks for the post.

wtr

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

My first awareness that there was much more to our hyung then we were taught came in the early 1980s when i began to cross train in shotokan and aki jitsu.
I soon learned what I was taught was a block was in fact not a block at all. Im not certain Gm hwang kee learned applications or it seems they would of been taught to us. George Dillman is right on! like him or not. From what i know of dillman never viewing his material hes onto the true applications of the bunkai. Master jay S penfil and myself are holding the first in a series of bunkai at my Michigan TSD headquarters. the nine hour seminar will be video taped for those who cant travel. seems like it should be a good turn out.

Martial Art Style www.michigantsd.com

In a life or death confrontation it is mindset as much as it is style. If the only rule is survival then you must become the other person's worst nightmare. Toss aside any thoughts of "rules of fair play"...that will get you killed...and then you ATTACK, ATTACK, ATTACK...until your opponant is down and no longer a threat.

One of my students, a young single female school teacher survived an attempted rape and who knows what else...possibly murder using what she had been taught in class....PLUS she was a very TOUGH lady.

She was a 1st Red only weeks away from her BB test...went home from class one night in December....snow on the ground.....went to bed...was awakened at 2am by her little house dog barking at the door....thinking the dog wanted to go outside for business, she opened the door and this guy busts in with a butcher knife....at one point in the confrontation he had her by the hair and had her head pulled back, the knife was at her throat, later evidenced by the cuts on her throat...She said she could not remember how she got aweay but it wasn't pretty....she ran outside, nightgown barefooted,snowing...he ran her down tackled her and was sitting on top of her trying to knock her out...she said "every time he hit me I saw stars but I said to myself...this guy's got NOTHING....I get hit harder than this in class".....BAM!...."Mr Weeks hits me harder than this sparring"......She REFUSED to be a victim! KICKED the guy off her managed to get to her feet....ran back into her house and called the police.....the guy is serving time now! Had a record for rape and attempted murder.....My Red belt had a broken nose, two black eyes, cuts on her arms and neck.....BUT SHE WASN'T RAPED or MURDERED!
It wasn't the tournament sparring techniques or the graceful movements from forms that saved her life but it WAS the training in Tang Soo Do that turned the tide on this predator!
She was my poster-lady for TSD Self Defense Classes for a long while....Stayed with me long enough to get her 2nd Don......
This lady moved away several years ago but continued her training and is now a 5th degree Black Belt in The Kang Ree Pasaryu System in Memphis, Tenn.

Tang Soo

Martial Art Style TSD kickboxing

What we learn in class is only the begining, but after 1000s of repitions you will find the moves are automatic muscle memory and this is where studying applications and having a good training partner will help, I train with a guy that was a bouncer in a place that was called at some times a bucket of blood metal bands, scantily clad women and drunk guys, he knows pretty much what works and what does not. The other thing is that I try not to be places that are violent by nature, and although you can get robbed or killed any where avoiding such places increases you odds of not having an altercation. I have also noticed that once I made Black Belt I was more able to see the different aplications of our basice moves.
Tang Soo
Mikeb

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

I hope that this reply finds you well.
Good question easily answered;
We learn to fight mortality rather than mortals.

If you want to be safe from mortals buy a gun then spend your days wondering if you will pull the trigger ? So it is with a good reverse punch, the question is in the ability to use one, not the effectiveness of the weapon.

Martial Art Style Moo Duk Kwan.

I like John Doves answer, but I also like many others as well…

Here is my answer.

The guy on the street that goes out and picks fights on a regular basis never gets taught how to pull a punch. He only knows how to follow throw without remorse of any kind. I don’t care what system of martial art you study. If you spend all of your time training for tournaments, and the sport aspect, you will most definitely be in the wrong mind-set when attacked by an aggressor with intent and ability.

You MUST train with an instructor that understands the martial aspects of the art that he/she teaches.
You MUST train with the street in mind, and not the sport.
You WILL respond in the street as you train in the dojang.
I get sick of the guys that claim that Tang Soo Do, and like systems are inferior to theirs in a real situation. These are guys that have never seen what the TRUE art is about, and have NO clue.

If you are interested in seeing what Tang Soo Do is about, and how it translates to the street, come to one of my seminars. Nobody gets hurt, but everybody leaves with a clear-cut understanding of the potential in our technique.

Contact me at your convenience for details:

Master Jay S. Penfil
jaypenfil@sbcglobal.net
TANG SOO!!!

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Tang Soo!

Interesting thread. I haven't been here for awhile, but I thought I'd chime in. I'm a recently promoted 3rd gup, and am becoming increasingly aware of how far I have to go and how much left there is to learn in Tang Soo Do.

That said, I think the advice about training with the street in mind is so important. As a woman, I am constantly aware of my vulnerability, and actually martial arts have only highlighted that. I am small. My reach is not as long as a man's, etc. But Tang Soo Do has given me many tools to counteract those vulnerabilities. So I'm small, but I am willing to head butt, claw, grab, yes-bite, kick and hit my way through or out of any situation. And I think that's key-not thinking you are going to kick someone's tail because you study whatever martial art or whatnot, but because you have picked up more tools for the survival toolbox. That's what the hyung, one-steps, and hol sin sol give me. It allows me, in a crisis, to have options for survival. If I were to lose an encounter, my hope is that my attacker will be hurting as well and may think twice the next time or be easier to find. And I have found myself in violent situations, most before tang soo do, and found the best defense is to use your head.

Tang Soo Do gives us more food for our heads, and ways to connect our instincts with useful weapons.

Tang Soo!

Bec

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Well put Master Penfil. I love to cross train. If you don't I believe that you will be defeated on the street. One must train to FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT or the guy on the street is going to beat your ass

Relevent thoughts , they seem to show up quite often so obviously many students of the arts are missing something .

Once when you reached a certain proficiency you were sent to a different master to learn more, then moved on to the next, at some point everything became specialized and masters began hording the students and not letting them learn somewhere else. Now we see MA going out and mixing the arts again trying new things adding techs from many diff disciplines, thats what I like about TSD I can add what i found works from othr arts to my TSD, so you will see a little wrestling, judo, hapkido, jujitsu, chin na, mixed into my TSD.

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

MMA AND TSD , INTERESTING