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SRJK -The interesting deleted post on warrior-scolar!!

HI to all!

I d'nt exactelly whats going on this subject buut i
found interesting a reply to a post on warrior-scholar
now deleted and was>

FIRST POST :
Please take a look at this link:
http://www.kimsookarate.com/gallery-present/tuksu_03/tuksu_03.htm
Does anyone confirm?

SECOND POST (by MASTER GUEST):
Wed Oct 05, 2005 3:51 pm
I was told that Grandmaster Yoon Byung In never once mentioned to his students what style of Chinese Martial Arts he trained in and that person was Kim Soo’s Instructor. It was also confirmed by another one of GM Yoon’s students Dr. Peck that Grandmaster Yoon never said what style he trained in while living in Manchuria. Nobody knows for a fact if GM Yoon trained in So Rim Kwon Bup or Pal *** Kwon. For Master Kim Soo and his son to call their two-man Chang Kwon form the So Rim Jang Kwon is stretching it a little bit. In other words the statement has some truth in it but it is also the wrong form that everyone is looking for.

Remember there are two SRJK forms in MDK history. The one that is described in KJN Hwang Kee’s books the form he supposedly forgot and the second version that was taught to HC Hwang his son. Those that have read the Soo Bahk Do Dae Kham will remember that about five years ago on this message board I pointed out that on page 687 the form was listed as a 2nd Dan form. This 2nd Dan form is the attack side of the two-man form (Kim Soo’s Chang Kwon) but it is not the BIG DADDY that is described by KJN Hwang Kee in both of his books the Hwa Soo Do and the Soo Bahk Do Dae Kham. At one time the So Rim Jang Kwon was used at 7th Dan Level by the MDK this version is a totally different form, at least it has different movements, and even the pictures in the book Hwa Soo Do, do not match any motion in the two-man Chang Kwon form. However the third motion of Kim Soo’s Chang Kwon does in fact match the third motion of KJN Hwang Kee’s book for the Chun Bee ready position.

So, why was the two-man form listed in the Soo Bahk Do Dae Kham as a 2nd Dan SRJK form you may ask? It is my opinion and I will try and explain, during the time (1960-1964) period there was an effort to unify the different Kwan’s into different associations as follows: Tae Soo Do, Soo Bahk Do and Tae Kwon Do. GM Park Chull Hee (GM Yoon’s student) added the Chang Kwon form to the Tae Soo Do requirements, as he was the Vice President of the Tae Soo Do at that time. Both Tae Soo Do and the Soo Bahk Do Associations used the same list of required generic forms even though some of the Kwan’s in those associations did not use some of the forms listed.

The two-man form was also taught to Shuto Kan Karate Master Kanken Toyama by GM Yoon and GM Kanken Toyama in turn taught Karate to GM Yoon in exchange. So, that is why you will read that some Karate people practice the form as Grandmaster C.I. Kim has pointed out recently. Grandmaster Yoon at the end of World War II, and his junior Grandmaster Kim Ki Whang brought this Chang Kwon form to Korea. Few people realize how senior Grandmaster Ki Whang Kim was and what influence he may have had on the Late KJN Hwang Kee and the MDK. There are a couple other interesting points about this but I’m probably boring everyone by now....

So, half the MDK secret is out, but only half...

Take Care.


SO... It maybe that there is someone out there....

whats going on?? maybe DS can explain someting now!

Re: SRJK -The interesting deleted post on warrior-scolar!!

Really - who cares?! Is THIS why you practice the martial arts?

Re: Re: SRJK -The interesting deleted post on warrior-scolar!!

I care! I appreciate anything about the Korean martial arts and the history of the MDK.

Tang Soo, Jim

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Re: Re: SRJK -The interesting deleted post on warrior-scolar!!

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Re: Re: Re: SRJK -The interesting deleted post on warrior-scolar!!

The guy made a serious post. So much for message board etiquette and respect for other martial artists.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: SRJK -The interesting deleted post on warrior-scolar!!

I didn't say I didn't respect him nor the martial arts. It seemed to me a dijoined post about a form.
I couldn't make heads or tails of what the person was attempting to say. It seemed to me that the writer was writing about a deleted post on another board(which can't be found) and then going futher on it.

I'm sure comments are made every now and then about what it said on other boards but to me that's like getting somewhat into the politics of another board....I really don't like politics (neither does my good freind Master Penfill I'm sure he'll agree).

If I didn't respect the writer, martial artists or other martial arts other than TSD (which is silly since I study others) then I would just say so.....I feel a bit silly now writing at length about this on the Internet

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: SRJK -The interesting deleted post on warrior-scolar!!

Also if that person posts here and (with an email address) I'll explain myself further to him. I doubt he cares what I have to say anyone. In the end we all have our own opinions

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: SRJK -The interesting deleted post on warrior-scolar!!

Well...actually....the post IS of interest...and the information is important to the ongoing research about the So Rim Jang Kwon Hyung. However, if you could not understand 'Master Guest' post, it is most probably because you have no familiarity with the form or the topic. The fact the post and consequently the information in it appeared and disappeared off the WS site is interesting in and of itself because of the 'carrot and stick' way this form has been treated over time. No one as yet has been able to successfully demonstrate and document its continued existence and many believe the form is terminally lost at this point. Many have claimed to be doing or know the form and yet the proof has never been born out. Often, someone will claim to know the form and be willing to teach it for some astronomical fee, or a Korean Master will claim he knows the form but you must stay with his organization for umpteen years (ergo...pay a crap load of dues) and then one day when you are ready, he'll demonstrate it for you. Again...talk is cheap...the form apparently isn't though. Master Guest is in reality the son of a very famous TSD master from days long ago and far away...and most of us in the know...know who he is. Again, you'd have to be educated in these matters for it to be of interest to you. That said, perhaps some of you time would be well spent in acquiring more than a superficial knowledge of TSD history. The acquisition of such information is not useless nor a waste of 'training time' but rather an enhancement to overall proficiency, understanding and mastery. The days of the TSD '*******" are over.

JH

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: SRJK -The interesting deleted post on warrior-scolar!!

Thank you Mr. JH

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: SRJK -The interesting deleted post on warrior-scolar!!

you've got to be kidding...your good friend posts the most long-winded hyperbole of anyone on any site! And is more into the politics and discrediting of reputable people than anyone I know (and believe me-I know having been the target of that unpleasant experience!) At least I'm not alone....he has targeted many and there is no one of any quality reputation in Michigan that trusts or respects that behavior. Ask around.

Re: SRJK -The interesting deleted post on warrior-scolar!!

First, I don't know what happened on Warrior-scholar.com to warrant the thread to be deleted.

But, as long as it has been re-posted here, lets continue in a more respectful tone, I think tihs has been hashed over quite a bit already , but if somone has new info , or a new avenue of investigation I'm game to continue the discussion.

As for peoplewho's IP is from Novi Michigan who won't post with anything but an anonymous name and no e-mail, why not? you have posted as many aliases over time and I don't mind but since you have such defined opinions I would think you would back them up with your name and org. of course you can continue as wondering or good friend or whatever you want, but to my mind you should use your real name or at least keep to one online name for the sake of continuity, I can read all the IP adresses as they come in, and trace them back to the source if I really feel like it so I know at least who is posting what. but visitors don't have that option, so please just keep one handle so others can keep tract of who says what. OK???

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: SRJK -The interesting deleted post on warrior-scolar!!

Huh "your good friend",

Who are you talking about? It appears this thread has gone way off track or does your post have something to do with the first post in this thread?

Jim

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: SRJK -The interesting deleted post on warrior-scolar!!

Well....it seem Bill Richards has returned to the message board under a new I.D.

Nonetheless....the original posting of the information was useful to certain people making serious attempts to examine and track down sources on the form Sorim Jang Kwon.

JH

Re: Re: SRJK -The interesting deleted post on warrior-scolar!!

FWIW
I am new to this board!
I think the recent subject on SRJK is very much of interest! and merits further exploration. As for the
Anonymous poster, I find this of interest as well and please share more of why you are so upest and angry! also give merit to your reason for your response. fill us in! Why so frustrated?

Martial Art Style gojo ryu

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: SRJK -The interesting deleted post on warrior-scolar!!

I realize that mostposts on here are of the supportive nature, but when I saw a certain name I felt I needed tomakea posting. Becareful of who you take as a good friend. I realize that everyone has a past, but maybe you should find out about your good friends. How he has burned too many brigdes within the Martial Arts community in Michigan.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: SRJK -The interesting deleted post on warrior-scolar!!

Disingenuous one,

Who are you talking about please? Because there several people who posted. You wrote:

"I realize that most posts on here are of the supportive nature, but when I saw a certain name I felt I needed to make a posting."

What name is that? So far only Jason and Bernard used their own names in the above posts.

Thanks,
Jim Cotton
Tang Soo Do

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: SRJK -The interesting deleted post on warrior-scolar!!

If you guys out in Michigan would just sit down at a table across from each other and discuss your issues instead of the he said she said stuff that has been going on it would put tis disagreement to rest. maybe an independant arbitrater would help . Other than that don't air your laundry here.

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: my good freind Master Penfill

Where did he go? Just courios

Re: Re: my good freind Master Penfill

Curious,

Last I spoke to Master Penfil he was on the road between seminars I believe, maybe midwest? not sure.

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Re: Re: my good freind Master Penfill

Thanks B. I was wondering he uslually posts here.

Re: SRJK -The interesting deleted post on warrior-scolar!!

Greetings to all,
I was speaking with JH this morning and he asked me if I had seen this posting yet. I hadn’t. My name has been mentioned here by a couple of participants that I consider to be good friends, and excellent examples of the true Tang Soo Do spirit.

As all of you know, I always post using the handle, “Master Jay S. Penfil”, and have my contact information available for everyone. The reason is quite simple; if you have something to ask me, a concern about an issue or whatever, I am out in the open and accessible to EVERYONE.

Disingenuous one,
I don’t know if I am the individual that you are speaking of in this statement;
How he has burned too many bridges within the Martial Arts community in Michigan.

But if I am, and you have something to say regarding me, here I am.

You can contact me by cell phone at: 248-561-5700.

You can email me at: jaypenfil@sbcglobal.net.

You can visit me in person where I teach at the:

Jewish Community Center
6600 West Maple Rd. (15 Mile Rd.)
West Bloomfield, MI 48332
My classes are on Tuesday & Thursday evenings, from 7:30 to 9:30pm.

If you are local it will be really easy for us to meet and get to know one another.

If I’m not the individual that you were speaking about, you can still come by to get acquainted, call or write…

Everyone that I have ever been involved with has received support and good instruction from me. The seniors that I have trained with over the past 33+ years are all still in contact with me, and hold me in good standing. If you know of someone that states that this is not the case, get me together with them and we will find out what the problem is. If I have truly done something inappropriate, or just flat out upset someone, let me know and if it is true I will own up to it and take the necessary steps to rectify the situation… it’s that simple.

I know that for some of you, it might be hard to believe, but I am not perfect, and have at times come across as overzealous, and in some cases offensive. For any and all of the times that this has happened and has been brought to my attention I have made amends for my actions and moved forward in a positive fashion with whom ever was offended.

There have been times when I have been accused of saying or doing things that I have not done. For example; this past 4th of July I went to the Oak Park, Michigan 4th of July Parade, specifically to show support for the man that prepared me for, tested me for and promoted me to black belt. This Master Instructor is Master Robb Hogan. Without Master Hogan’s instruction and support in those early days, I would not have developed to the point that I have. The lessons that he shared with me were such that I could not have found with ANY OTHER INSTRUCTOR, and to this day I am thankful to him for all that he has shared with me.

Upon approaching Master Hogan after his students finished their march in the parade, he got right to business, as he always does. If there is a problem, he wastes NO TIME in addressing the necessary issues. He told me that someone had sent him an email with a posting enclosed that was “Supposedly” written by me that stated that; according to me, Master Hogan was a “Mediocre Instructor”. I have never made any such statement verbally or in writing to anyone, anywhere at any time. I made that clear to Master Hogan. He stated that it was my name that appeared at the end of the posting as the author.

Within an hour of that conversation with Master Hogan, I went on line and did a search of my name on the internet. Doing such a search will pull up EVERY place on the web that contains my name. I could not find any posting that contained anything remotely along the lines of the posting that was sent to Master Hogan, and that is most likely because whoever sent it to him probably manufactured it, or received it from its author. I was not involved in any way…

Master Hogan was very upset when he received that posting, and I was very upset when he brought it to my attention. Games like this are totally unacceptable, and should not be played by anyone, on anyone.

As Bernard stated, please do not use this discussion board (or any other for that matter) to air your dirty laundry. If your boggle is with me, I am always accessible via the contact info provided in this posting. I always answer my cell, and a check me email several times per day. I am always present at my class. As said earlier, I am easy to find, for those who truly want to find me.

Let’s work on keeping it clean and friendly from here on out, and use your real name or an email that is legitimately yours so we can converse in private when necessary…



Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: SRJK -The interesting deleted post on warrior-scolar!!

Good to see you back Sir!!

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: SRJK -The interesting deleted post on warrior-scolar!!

Thank you Bernard...

My new position has me very busy. I will look forward to posting on Saturdays from this point forward.

Please give my regards to everyone at the dojang.


Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil

TANG SOO!!!

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do