What do any of you feel about the message below - listed on a competitor's website. (We left their organization because it was all about money, greed and power, and found a TSD society with an outstanding Grandmaster/practitioner to train with that does not charge 30% of our school's revenue {not profit....revenue} as his fee, who has restored our faith in the goodness in the martial arts.)
Have any of you changed instructors or Federations? What is your take on this? Do you consider yourself "illegitimate" now?
To non xxxx Students:
If you would like to join a positive, exciting, traditional martial arts school, than look no further than xxxx Karate. Our schools are rooted in tradition and will teach you martial arts like no other school. You will see some schools changing "Masters and instructors often" let that be a red flag to you. Check on your instructors credentials, look on the wall at their certificates and call their instructor (s) to see if he is in good standing. All of our instructors are taught weekly by xxx and his xxxx Karate team. Please contact the school closest to you or call xxxxx
Martial Art Style TSD
Turns out the instructor we left is quite the hypocrite. His 1st-3rd dans came from elsewhere too, including his own self-promotion to 2nd dan. Thanks MB for that bit of intel. Although I guess if you called to check on his credentials, would he be in good standing with himself? LOL!
Martial Art Style TSD
Yes rooted in tradition (but are they truly rooted in tradition or working an assembly line and cutting out cookies?) and will take your money like no other school would LOL. I think there is a great rebuttal to changing masters's and instructors often. The ones who change are doing so for constant and never ending improvement. If you cannot continue to grow under an instructor or master then it is time to move forward in a positive direction and not stay in one place spinning your wheels so to speak. You cannot grow with an organization that limits you or dictates to you what you can and can't do. These are the school owners who are not willing to settle for mediocrity. These school owners want only the best for themselves and students. As far as the holder of a certificate being in good standing with thier instructor... I ask myself what does this mean...good standing? If you are not in good standing, does this mean that you have lost all that he taught you when he issued you the rank or certificate? Or that you were not good enough to deserve it in the first place? NO!! because that would be a negative reflection on him and his organization. NOT in good standing simply means that the master and organization is no longer making 30 percent of your revenue! Let it not be a red flag but a sign that the school is a place where you want to be. A school where the instructors have the burning desire to learn all that they can to pass on to their own students with no limitations.
Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do
Well said. And the truth of the matter is - THEY are not in good standing with US! That's obviously why we left. As long as we had kept our mouths shut, eyes closed and pocketbooks open, we would have remained in "good standing".
Martial Art Style TSD
I don't know how to respond to this one totally. I can say from my personal experience, I have never left my instructor the gentleman who promoted me to black belt in Tang Soo Do. He has had my loyalty for over 22 years and if he asked me to walk off a cliff I most likely would do it.
But, he has also never inhibited my growth as a martial artist and has encouraged me to learn all I can and study under others or learn from them. Perhaps, this is a reason he has my loyalty and while I can say I have studied under others, but I have only one instructor.
Everyone who I have studied with I let them know that I am honored to work with them, learn from them, they have my great respect and admiration, but my ultimate loyalty lies with one man. When I put on that first black belt he and I engaged in a pact that supersedes anything from that point until the end of time. I knew that prior to putting that belt on, this man before me (my instructor) was my master, and by putting this belt on I was honor bound to him. I made a promise, and he in turn made a promise to me. Loyalty goes both ways.
This promise works both ways, and if you view it in this way you should never put that belt on if you do not intend to honor your end of the bargain or do not believe the instructor you have trained under will fulfill his or hers. What constitutes the instructors end of the bargain? One perhaps should know that before placing that sacred object (the "black" or "midnight Blue Belt") around one's waist as well as what constitutes one own end. I can give my definition of what each person is honor bound to, but I realize that is just my definition and the understanding my instructor and his black belts share with one another, and what the next generation of black belts promoted by those instructors share with them.
Our honor as martial artists is tied up in this, in the value of our words and promises. Don’t show me an awesome form, or pretty kick, keep your word to me, this tells me you are a true martial artists. See throwing pretty kicks, and awesome forms are far more common I fear than honesty, integrity and keeping your promises.
The advancement to black belt in my view committed me to being a serious student of the martial arts and to honor my instructor as I wish to be honored by not only him, but my future students. He did not ask for me once I passed the test to put the belt on, he offered it to me like a weight with all the responsibility included. When I agreed and put it on it sealed the bargain. If we do not take such meaning to this belt, this act of accepting our responsibilities and accepting obligations then the belt really is no longer sacred or special it is just a piece of cloth we wear around our waste that said we could do kicks, punches, hyungs or whatever adequate enough to get a thumbs up from a board of people who have been doing it longer than us. This cloth is only as important as we make it, it only symbolizes what we project on to it. I want it to be more, and for me it is the outward symbol of our loyalty, honor, respect and our commitment to pursue knowledge in the martial arts. Kicking and punching is easy in comparison at times to doing what is moral or right.
Perhaps I have been lucky in this respect, not having to decide whether or not my instructor has failed in his responsibility to me. He has NEVER failed me as I hope to never fail my future black belts, but if he had ever failed it would have been a very tough decision for me. This cannot be a decision based on only convenience such as Master So and So will not charge my school if I join his organization, or he will charge less than Master So and So. In the end, such fickle loyalty or loyalty out of convenience sets a bad precedent. How can one have fickle loyalty and then ask for loyalty from one’s own black belts?
I am not saying this is the case in the above post; there may be plenty of reasons justifying the move. It certainly seems based on what is written to be better for them. Nor am I in a position to judge anyone, nor give absolution.
However, I am saying that to abandon one’s instructor is terrible thing, even if necessary, and should never be under taken lightly. The time to leave is before one puts that black belt on, and before one makes that promise. And if it is not viewed as a promise or a contract between instructor and student, then I fear it demeans the significance of the Dan ranking. The Dan ranking loses much if not all of its significance.
James Yowell
Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do
As for organizations changing...you asked about opinions on changing instructors :) My opinions on "organizations" differs substantially, especially because I do not make such binding agreements with "organizations" with the exception of Uncle Sam. :)
Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do
You're right...it's in the honoring of each other and what is right. Ours was the only instructor we had for over 10 years. Leaving was not easy and elicited more tears from US than anyone! But staying was not possible once we realized the greed had overcome all. This man had schools paying him 30% while they went bankrupt. The kids of those bankrupted did not have medicine they needed, while the "master" instructor took their money and bought his own airplane. That's just not right. And the sexual discrimination and religious discrimination were the icing on the cake. It was one of the biggest disappointments in our lives to see what had become of this man and his organization. How could we stay and be a part of that? Anyway, we are blessed to have found a good home with a good man and plan to stay with him the rest of our tang soo do lives! 2 instructors over a lifetime doesn't seem to be much of a red flag to me.
Martial Art Style TSD
KSW,
It would seem you have made the right decision for yourselves, and that perhaps the instructor was not living up to his end of the bargain. Though we give our loyalty to our instructors one of the things they owe us is to not abuse or misuse us.
I am glad you have found a good home, my prayers and best wishes go with you.
Jamie
Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do
I have not written much lately but want to chime in on this issue. The current Association system in the USA is pure silliness.
Please tell what value an Association has to a school owner?
1. Doesn't an Association teach the school owner?
If the school owner needs a teacher then pay a tudent fee to the Association - not a percentage of your income… DAAAAH. My students are my students… thank you very much. A school owner in any market can find very gifted instructors and you are not limited to just one dogma or style. I especially have to laugh at those who belong to an Association were the teachers are hundreds or even thousands of miles away. For the price of the travel expenses, I get dozens of hours of individual instruction locally. Plus there are seminars all over the country where a school owner can get additional training.
2. Doesn't the Association give credibility to me and the school?
If you need creditability from an Association maybe you need to take a good hard look at your own ability and skills. When a student walks in my door, they want to know about me and what I know - not some Grandmaster from Denver. If they are interested in the Grandmaster from Denver, I don't want them and neither should you.
3. Doesn't the Association provide a standard of practice.
I have been involved in 2 international Tang Soo Do Associations and what I have learned is that their standards are narrow, limited, dogmatic and in many cases not very good martial arts.
4. But how do I get promoted?
Yes, this is the point isn't, how can get that almighty Master's belt. I don't care who promotes me as long as he/she knows me inside-out. I am a 2nd degree and my instructor has now retired. Though I do not really see any reason to ever get promoted - if I did, then I would find an instructor and train with him or her until we were both 100% convinced that I had mastery of THEIR requirements.
I have seen a TSD International Association award belts including Master belts without testing and without full knowledge of the who the person really is or the skill set they really have. I believe we should have a new Olympic sport called "Association Hopping" - I can give stories of 2nd degrees who became 5th degrees in 3 years with Association Hopping. This happens all the time in the USA.
5. But Sir, if I don't belong to Association I won't have any politics to deal with. OK you got me on that one - you can quit reading.
The Association structure doesn't work on almost every level except at the top of this ancient pyramid scheme. They are typically run but strong personalities that demand rigged adherence to their ideas. Of course there are exceptions. Just think for a moment - what would happen to these Associations if the "grandmaster" were to die tomorrow... how happy would you be with the possible successors?
Because I am free of the Association world, I have been able to develop good relationships with people like Master Jay Penfil and Soke Roger Miller and I don't need to ask anyone's permission to talk to them, learn from them or even have them teach my students.
Merry Christmas and Tang Soo,
TangSooDoty
Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do
Hi Dave D.,
Nice to hear from you, If the Kickathon was not Sat. I was going to come down to your Seminar, but it was 71/2hrs of driving so it didn't work out. next time!
b
Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do