This question is to the instructors who have dedicated them selves to TSD and train not out of ego but as a way of life, You see I have trained in TSD for over 25 years and have been through a lot but I never gave up my love for this art. About 10 years ago I was practicing some grappling and was thrown down and missed the mat and hit concrete and blew my disk out (L4 L5) and so I ended up having surgery after trying every thing from Acupuncture to Chiropractors. So it helped but 2 years ago I did it again this time so bad that I had emergency surgery to keep the disk from coming detached from the main disk and floating inside my spinal canal. So all went well and within 6 months I was back to working out to about 3 days a week, then about a year ago I started having pain in my right hip and the doc said that my cartilage is almost gone and I may need to replace it within 5 years if I'm lucky and so I did the usual taking Glucosamine and Chondrotin, MSM and Omega-3 fatty acids. Then I started having cramps in my legs at night and so they did an MRI and my disk was gone so I had the disk removed and small springs called a cage with bone put in and now it's fusing so that the vertebra becomes one piece. So know I have two doctors telling me to stop TSD and to never do it again, the surgeon says only do swimming and nothing else. at this point it's been 12 weeks and have taught forms to some students and the Doctor found out from my wife while I was in the waiting room and the Doctor came out and looks at me and says if you do Karate you will get surgery again!!
My heart sank and have just about given up on it I guess I can do only forms and Tai Chi Chuan and teach. I guess this is called getting old, I'm 45 and started in judo in 1970 and then in 1974 I meet Chuck Norris and new this would some day be the art I would take up.

Hi DR,

Welcome to the board! first off 45 is not old, I'm turning 43 Jan 3rd so don't even go there LOL

If the Docs are telling you not to train, hmmm, teach, train slow, maybe speak to a sports medicine DR. see what they think about limited training.

I am surprised the dr. Didn't recommend an artificial disc replacement instead of fusion, http://www.charitedisc.com/charitedev/domestic/patients/whattoexpect_afterdiscreplacement.asp

It would give you more flexability than fusion, I know someone who had it done, not a martial artist unfortunately so I can't say training stayed the same, but he does all the normal things, walk, bike ect.

Tang Soo!
b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Dr,

I do not think you can give up TSD or Martial Arts. Once a true martial artist always a martial artists. Two years ago I broke my leg badly sparring and was told I would always walk with a limp and continuing Martial Arts as I had before was out of the question. The Doctors were wrong, I walk fine now, and last year I won a national championship in forms and will be fighting again this year.

Things have changed however. I cannot jump as much before, I cannot take landing on the leg as often (my tendons now are in the wrong place) so I had to adapt and change the way I do things. It is a simple fact, my ankle (tendon damaged and misplaced as a result of the broken leg and the bone coming down upon them) is not the same, it bends a certain way I have no support I go to the floor. No willpower will change this (only time I am told it may eventually migrate back to where it belongs go figure).

A friend of mine, I guy I have known for over 20 years, he has had back and neck problems almost paralyzing him. He can no longer kick, or be thrown. Yet, it was not over for him. He can still teach, he can still work hand techniques, he still is a martial artists.

I am not telling you to ignore the Medical professionals, but find out what your limitations are, find out if it is dangerous to challenge those limitations. And if you have hit a place in your life where you can no longer do something, work around it. But, most importantly remember the knowledge of the Martial Arts is the most valuable thing you possess. Do not stop, continue to acquire it and to pass it on. The Doctors are wrong you should not give up Martial Arts Doctors only perhaps certain activities. Doctors are not know it alls, they are specialists who know their particular area. They do not understand that Martial Arts is a way of life. It is not just kicking and punching, it is more about the mind after all.

My surgeon who put my leg back together did not believe my leg could have snapped in two throwing a round kick as it is impossible to generate that much power with a twisting motion. My left foot became trapped, I threw a full speed kick...according to him the ankle would have broken as to generate enough force to break the bones is unheard of. He insisted it must have been kicked or something. He did not understand Martial Arts or the way we kick...the power never made it to my ankle, the kick was too quick and therefore the energy concentrated on the leg and snapped it in two cleanly, the power never made it to the ankle. The Surgeon could not grasp this, he could not believe it was possible to generate so much power in a twisting motion. Bottom line he is a Doctor but ignorant as to the mechanics involved in a simple round kick, just as I am ignorant in the methods he used to fuse the titanium plates to my bones to mend them.

The Doctor was also amazed at the Density of my leg bones as they are apparently much denser than the athletes he sees such as football players and basketball players. It is because Martial Arts training does this to us. He had a bone density test run to find out how it could break because he again did not understand the power generated in a simple round kick.

I know I am rambling, however what I am trying to say is Doctors do not tend to understand that Martial Arts is not just some sport one plays and then quits, anymore than most of them tend to understand the mechanics behind a simple technique. Continue, you are a Martial Artists. Work with your Doctor's to find out what types of activities you can engage in, be smart and work WITH them, don't risk further damaging your health with high risk activities..for example throwing that last round kick is not worth paralysis. You may not be able to practice throws, falls, or kicking, but find out what you can practice. Acquire knowledge as you have always done and pass your knowledge on to students. Just remember the most valuable thing you possess is your mind and the accumulated knowledge of the Martial Arts.

Finally, if you would write me and tell me about Mr. Norris. My instructor was one of Mr. Norris's long time students. I met Mr. Norris years ago as a child when he was in Atlanta filming Invasion USA. He stopped by my instructor's school to say hello.

Jamie

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

DR,

While I am younger than you, & some others that post on this board, I've been training almost my entire life. I am 33, & have been training since I was 5. I can tell you, the martial arts have taken a toll on my body. As we age, we need to change the way we think, & train. The body can only take so much. Our hips werent meant to do all these high kicks, our backs werent meant to be taken all these falls, & all the injuries from sparring too, forget about it! You know back when I was a teenager, I was doing Pyung Ahn Ea Dan, & we used to do an over exagerated in to out middle block to the rear of the form, & I overexagerrated it a bit too much, & snap there went my ankle; at the same time something happened to my knee, it pops out of place every once in a while, but the Dr's could never find anything wrong w/ it. My knee, & ankle has never been the same. I had my jaw knocked out of place by the super heavy weight champion of FL, my nose shattered by the 2x world heanyweight kickboxing champion, Mark Graden. About 6 yrs ago, I was struck, & pinned between my car, & another guys car, while changing a tire on the interstate; I had 3 witness's, they all thought I was dead. This happened on a bend in the road, my witness's come running around the corner to find that I pulled myself out from in between the 2 cars, & found me pounding on this guys window, they couldnt believe their eyes. The guy stayed out all night long drinking, & decided he was sobber enough to drive home in the morning, but fell a sleep at the wheel. So, in the short time on this earth I've had plenty of injuries. Too many! I've gained alot of weight since the accident, & cant move like I used to, but I still train. I dont train at a Dojo/Dojang on a regular basis, I go out of town, & out of the country for my training now. So pretty much all my training is done by myself now, so I can pace myself. This is what I think you need to do, is pace yourself, if you feel something is starting to hurt, take a rest, if you are kicking high, & it hurts lower your kicks, & slow down. I've found a good thing to do, is train your kicks in the water, it will help greatly! You should also do some type of resistance training, w/ light weights, or bands, to help build up those muscles again. I am very lucky, I have a group of friends that i get together w/ every once in a while, their all mostly older than me, so we take it easy, lol. We dont spar, or anything, but just get together to share w/ eachother, & we have a great time. Most of us have been training atleast 20 yrs, so it's a great time shared by all, & most important of all, no ego. I do wish you the best of luck, & hope my advice helps, & my story has encouraged you to not give up, but to train healthy, & smart. Take care!

David Somers
www.angelfire.com/fl5/okinawagojuryu
www.okinawagojuryu.org

I want to thank you guys for your advice and more is always welcomed. As of right now I'm just doing forms and slow at that. I did some kicks and found that my back got very sore so I need to hold off on them until I now that the fusion is complete, I go in on Jan 9 Th for an X-ray to see how it went. I had two back surgery's before so that's why the Doctor thinks I'm crazy for even attempting working out But I think that I can do slow kick in the air and forms. And about Chuck Norris, in 1974 just after Return of the Dragon came out my best friend was working out at his school in Santa Monica so I went to watch class and Arron Norris I believe was teaching it that night, so Chuck Norris comes out of the office and at that time he had blond hair and no beard and comes up to me and Say's nice to meet you and starts showing me photos of the movie of Bob Wall and say Bob's my student and I remembered that's the only line he had in the movie but any way he talked a lot about Bruce Lee and how he missed him as a fellow martial artist. I couldn't join his school at the time it was about $35.00 a month and my parents couldn't afford it so I got a job and started paying at a TSD school in San Jose Ca.
But I did belong to his federation for a short time and I got to work out with him in 1983 and I must say he's much faster in real life. Tang Soo!!

DR,

Let us know how it goes!
I know something of injuries too, not my back, knock on wood, but I have had my share of joint problems, mostly recovered, or not bugging me much right now thankfully. I would still check out a Sports medicine Dr. just to be sure you can do some training, he may say wait longer, but I notice these days they get you up and moving faster, when my Grand Mother had hip replacement, they had her up the next day walking around, amazing.
I think the forms we have in TSD done slow like Tai Chi could really help in the understanding of the forms. Try doing them with some meditation music on, see how that feels.
I hope you will stick around and add your experience to the board!

Tang Soo
b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Thank's I will do that.

Martial Art Style TSD

Hello DR
back in the 1980s I met a competitor who amazed me and Inspired me on the old Michigan Karate circuit. I believe he's passed on now.
In 2004 I met another martial artist a word champion who like the gemtleman mentioned aboved Inspired me as well. he attended my weapons clinic and seminar that I held at my Dojang. He was a world champion in empty hand forms in his division but desired to learn weapons. His name is kelly, and after his performance of bassai We all could see why he was a champion. I taught him a staff form and a sword hyung. I brought out to the middle of the training floor a metal folding chair and sat next to this amazing man..As we sat in our chairs together going through the basics of the weapons I was even more inspired by this man. He did martial arts from his heart, His Mind and his spirit...Yes he learned the weapons that day from a seated position for like the other gentleman mentioned he was in a wheel chair. He was the world black belt wheel chair champion.
Martial arts are a way of life, a lifestyle, The most important body part needed is not your legs for kicking nor your hands for blocking or punching its your heart! As I tell my students close your eyes...now train in martial arts using only your mind walk through hyung or kata feel your spirit soar...hear your own heart beating...
Good luck to you and god bless you but remember TSD will not give up on you.
MD

Martial Art Style www.michigantsd.com

Thanks for the encouragement and nice web site and school. It's kinda funny because when I had my last surgery in September,I would do every form in my head and go over each one.

Tang Soo!!

Martial Art Style TSD

DR,
This is an issue that is close to my heart…

I am now 47, and as many of the regulars on this site know, I am a serious Tang Soo Do practitioner. I started having problems with my back in 1984. The problems got worse as time moved forward. I underwent surgery in February, 2004, to remove the cartilage that had originally resided between my L4 & L5, as it had stretched out like an old rubber band and had fallen down around the L5 and was pinching the nerve root to the bone.

Prior to the surgery I had been bed ridden, and unable to walk for almost 4 months. The doctors had me on muscle relaxer’s, pain pills and anti-inflammatories and kept telling me that the pain would subside, and I would be just fine. After 4 months of that, I was able to get them to do an MRI on me. I met with a Neurosurgeon and showed him the MRI. In 10 seconds he was able to see the problem, and I was on the table, under his knife 4 days later.

I spent the next 6 months getting back up to speed, but I did, and am teaching again 2 nights per week, and training on the off days privately. I don’t do a lot of the kicks that I have loved for so many years, as it just causes me more trauma to my lower back, but everything else works fine.

With regard to your injuries; you may be in close to, if not the same position as me. The key to being able to continue is to train smart. Don’t allow yourself to do the movements that aggravate your back. It’s kind of what my dentist told me when I was around 10 years old… he said; be true to your teeth, or they will be false to you!!! You can use this same philosophy for your back. Only do what is “Back-Smart”, and you will be just fine.

By the way, Bernard, YOU’RE 43 YEARS OLD???
I would have guessed you to be around 30 to 33 MAX!!!

Keep up the good work, and healthy living. It’s doing you good!


All the best for a Happy and Healthy New Years to everyone!!!

Yours in Tang Soo Do,

Master Jay S. Penfil

TANG SOO!!!

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Yup 43 in 4 days, born on Jan 3rd 1963!

You thought I was 30-33? I new I liked you Sir!! thank you.
I'm sure about the clean living part, LOL

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

I hope that I, one day, learn your secret to youthful living...

New Years Eve "2006" is upon us all.

Let us all go out (or stay in), and ring in the New Year in a safe way, and with good friends and family by our sides.

All the Best,

Master Jay S. Penfil

TANG SOO!!!

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

WOW it sounds like a similar situation, but with my back it was almost bone to bone and grinding and the Doctor said most people can't walk or in so much pain they just stay in bed but for me I had been in pain for so long I just blocked it out but don't get me wrong I was in pain all the time. I think the thing that may have caused me to have the last two surgery's was bag and pad work. I did it at least once a week and like golfers twisting the upper body and torquing hard the same thing happens. And after the work out my right hip would start to hurt and so I couldn't sleep.

I wanted to show you all the web site that has an animation of what I had done,

http://www.esurgeon.com/zdeblick/

Click on

Treatment Options

then click on

Interbody fusion with cages

then Play Animation

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Dr.

Thanks for the Chuck story. I too was amazed at how much faster he was in real life when when I saw him. I enjoy hearing the stories people have about him.

Also, good luck and I hope all goes well for you.

Jamie

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do