Tompkins Karate assoc. Talk about bad . ever seen a 7 year old kid promoted from white to gup 6 with under 20 hours training , Man , they give belts away like candy to anyone that pays to test . Let me tell you that their black belt instructors got their belts the same way .... no kiddin .... if you studied anywhere for 1 year you would be more qualified then 99% of their instructors ..... any one that made rank here and thinks they deserve it is a fool ... check it out this is the kind of place that gives martial arts a bad name ....a real scam but check the internet on Dale Tompkins and look how he got his black belt ...disgracefull ....and look at all the people that went to his schools and thought they learned karate ... sad
Truth,
Well don't hold back, just tell us how you feel. LOL
I don't know the program, I only spoke to Master Tompkins once and he seemed very nice, he invited me to visit when I am in the area. I checked out the website and the program seemed solid enough. As for how he earned his black belt, I will quote the site:
"Mr. T began his martial arts training in 1962 as a college student when he met a Dick Kern, who was teaching karate in Washington, D.C. Mr. T followed Kern to (Kee Hwang) Kim's studio. Under Kern's instruction, Mr. T was promoted to black belt in 1964 and became a black belt instructor. He has been a Master Instructor since 1968. "
Well, it says two years to Black belt then four years to Master, Time wise it seems short, but Who can say what training he was getting in that time? He could have been going everyday and been a prodigy, I won't second guess, I wasn't there.
Are you a student of his or a parent who is not satisfied? What exactly is it that has upset you, the examples you mentioned? or is there something else going on??
b
Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do
I'm inclined to agree a bit - the black belts don't seem to be as strict as they should be.
But that's not a problem though - I think of the the belts preceeding the black belt rank as only a test to see if you are ready.
I am a Cho Dan Bo and I've started to go to black belt classes now and they have helped me much more than normal classes - once you reach that plateau THEN you really start to grow and learn properly.
Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do
Nice generalizations about my school. Glad you understand the whole context... In general it takes about 4-5 years at my school to reach the black belt level. In TKA, students generally reach 8th grade (gup) with about 15 weeks of training and then reach 6th after about .5-1 year of training. We don't test one grade to another, but no one would ever skip to 6th gup (Green) on their first test. The largest jump is to red belt which at TKA means either "really good yellow belt" or "not quite green belt".
I don't know what class you saw or if you just read on the internet, but I invite anyone to check out our classes, our black belt test (in February) or our ERKC tournament in April. The proof is always in the pudding.
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Replying to:
Tompkins Karate assoc. Talk about bad . ever seen a 7 year old kid promoted from white to gup 6 with under 20 hours training , Man , they give belts away like candy to anyone that pays to test . Let me tell you that their black belt instructors got their belts the same way .... no kiddin .... if you studied anywhere for 1 year you would be more qualified then 99% of their instructors ..... any one that made rank here and thinks they deserve it is a fool ... check it out this is the kind of place that gives martial arts a bad name ....a real scam but check the internet on Dale Tompkins and look how he got his black belt ...disgracefull ....and look at all the people that went to his schools and thought they learned karate ... sad
Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do
The tournament, can you give more specific information about it. Such as when and where?
Thank you,
Jamie
Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do
www.tkasudo.com has the details under events. All are invited. It will be in Rockville, Maryland on Apr 29, 2006 and our office can send you an application. If you are a blackbelt you are invited (not required) to judge a ring. We like to have no more than one or two TKA black belts per ring and all of the head judges for each ring are non-TKA black belts.
Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do
I'm wondering what you mean when you say that the black belts don't seem strict enough... Do you mean in terms of requirements or our approach to teaching?
Best,
john
Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do
John Luiza,
The original poster seemed to have a need to vent,I guess they had a issue with the school or a instructer and felt the need to flame, I did ask them to be more specific but they never replied. You just have to take these types of post with a grain of salt.
I remember talking with Master Tompkins and he was forthright and quite approachable. He did say I was more than welcome to visit when I am down that way. I may make it one of these days. Which school are you out of?
b
Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do
Grain of salt taken :)
I "travel" we don't consider each location a school... We think of it as one school with many classes. I typically go to Rolling Terr. ES on Thursday nights and our Friday night workout in rockville
Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do
Feel free to post info on your tournament on a new thread.
b
Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do
Lets get a bit specific .....
Some where on the net you will find that Kern was about 16 or 17 and studied in Korea for about 1 year to achieve black belt , Tompkins met him at Jhoon Rhees and followed him from there I believe to Bethesda at a church based organization where in less then two years he became a black belt , later the school was turned over to a biack beLt from Korea . Feel free to correct me . TKA still retains a religious flavor and the lack of training is evident through out .
My observation of TKA spans about 7 years in which I repeatedly saw belts given out like candy on all levels often to the most ill trained and undeserving pupils , many of which skipped 1 or 2 belt ranks and sometimes more . I saw no children ever promoted to black belt and only 1 adult which could not even hold thier own sparring 12 to 14 year old children and this particular black belt was one of thier instructors . If you have rank anywhere it was honored in thier school . I once saw a young man with 6 months experience in taekwondo when he was in school years ago not only retain his rank of yellow belt but after 2 months was promoted to green belt , the sad thing is that this young mans basic karate was beter then any one in the class including the black belts .
The drop out rate was unreal . Tka operates through the park and rec service which is how they are able to to function within the elementary schools . Most classes are taught by poorly trained 1st degree black belts with almost no supervision , no one from the school or park and rec ever checked on them . The elementary school becomes a feeding ground for these charlatans with a never ending supply of 5 to 8 year olds swelling thier classes to upwards of 50 students . Since the parents are often not martial artists themselves they are sold a uniform , a couple classes , a couple of belts , a tournament and all the sparing gear they can sell them . Then with a false since of achievement they are on thier way with new children to take thier place . Sparing is almost non existent in the childrens classes and as for thier tournaments , well you guys should all come if you are looking for poor opponents . They even have breaking there although you will never see it in class .
What is taught such as forms , punches , blocks , kicks , stances is sloppy on all levels. What is not taught , proper breathing , falls . throws all though they are used in forms , and almost all the basics that you can find in any karate book . Sparing , well , they don't teach such basics as distance and closing , steping off the line of attack etc. How about weapons , try none , oh wait the bo , befor you test for brown they sell you a bo and spend an hour or two on it , you will not see that again for a year or two . Almost no advanced martial arts are taught and almost no useable self defense . Forms are taught as if they were a dance with almost all students including the upper belts not understanding the individual moves and thier applications . The best joke is to see students execute a throw in a form although they have never thrown anyone nor even been taught to fall .
Since most of thier more qualified instructors have long since jumped shipped you should come to one of thier adult classes for a good laugh and witness one of thier senior black belts retraining thier black belt instructors often on a yellow/green belt level .
Bottom line is Maryland schools are looking to provide a watered down approach to martial arts that gives children a taste of martial arts but in no way expects to produce competent martial artists and Tka more then fills that bill.
Truth hurts.
READ ON
A good question to ask of Tka is how many students paticipated in thier program over the last ten years and secondly how many achieved first dedree black belt with a breakdown of children /adults
I think that should say it all
Truth (or whatever your real name is)
Yes, let's get specific:
Lets get a bit specific .....
The first items you bring up are about Tompkins legitimacy as a bb... This is a moot point. Not only does he not do the training, but we promote using a panel of black belts. Time to bb isn't an indicator of skill.. Especially 40 years ago when training and overall skill level were different. typically in korea at the time average time to bb was 1-2 years.
Quote:
Feel free to correct me . TKA still retains a religious flavor and the lack of training is evident through out."
Very wrong. TKA is a secular organization full of atheists, Muslims, Jews, and Christians.
How exactly WERE you involved with TKA? Our belt promotion system is different than many schools. LIke I said, the benchmark for green belt is about .5 to 1 year of training. Blue belt 1.5-2 years of training, Brown Belt 2nd grade 2.5-3 years 1st brown 3.5-4.5 years and Black Belt 4-5 years.
In another post you wanted to know how many black belts we have had: SOmewhere near 250 in 40 years. With another 30-50 "jr. blackbelts" in that 40 years.
Which instructor did you witness that couldn't hold their own against 12-14 yos? Yes, we honor rank, but you have to train our undermaterial as well... I see no problem with that.
As to the training, again I invite you to any of our classes (especially if you used your real name) and our ERKC tournament.
As for not teaching falls or forms applications, again wrong. We have a curriculum in Japanese jujitsu and students are tested on their TSD and JJ knowledge. We learn how to do falls, including hard falls.
There is much misinformation in your post and very little Truth...
Truth,
It sounds like you have a vendetta against this particular organization. However, this board is probably not the best place to vent it. Most of the people on this board are into the Martial Arts already, and would make up their mind about the TKA based on first hand experience with the organization and interaction with the organization. If it is as you claim it to be, it would quickly be evident to most people on this board who have experience in Martial Arts. Thus, no education on our parts is truly necessary. I cannot speak for everyone, but generally I do not engage in business with those that I do not get to know or are comfortable with.
You have strong opinions, which may be valid, I am just not sure that this is the most receptive audience. Either the members no of this organization and have chosen to either befriend it or not, do business with or not, or they are like me and know nothing of it and don't really care. However, even with that said, I would still make up my own mind based upon what I learned of the organization myself if I were to encounter it.
And no I am not part of it, or ever heard of it until the earlier post on this board condemning it.
In the end, it appears that you are attacking an organization while remaining anonymous yourself. Under these circumstances, how is it fair to that organization to even respond? Just does not seem a very honorable practice.
Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do
Truth,
If you feel so strongly about this could you post your name along with the post? Anonymous flames will end up deleted, but if you get specific with names dates and facts that can be checked I will leave it up.
b
Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do
As to a flame or vendetta , not hardly . It is just that tka is one of the best representations that I could possibly think of to highlight what is wrong with martial arts in america . Any one of you can put on a black belt and open a school here with little or no training . Buisness and martial arts are 2 very diferent things and here in america buisness rules the day .
Let me be more specific for John .... The black belt I refered to was the only person of the more then 1000 students I observed to reach that rank and was an instructor at manor woods , replacing the previous 18 year old kid who was there . Now lets use your number from the glory days of 240 black belts over 40 years which is approx. 6 per year , now tka teaches at over 50 elementary schools so about 5000 or so students per year wich gives you an achievement rate of about 1 per 1000 or 1 tenth of 1 percent of thier students reach black belt which gives you a drop out rate of 99.9% ....sad . With that many schools you need every black belt you can muster regardless of ability to staff the schools and no one ever visits the program from the county because the only requirement of non profit is fulfiled by leasing the space to parks and rec who in turn contracts to tka and therefor no outside supervision . Most of the schools do not allow mats and many of these kids reach green to brown belt without any training in falls , throws , or sparing . And yes , I saw a child with a few months promoted from orange to purple belt (the largest jump I witnesed) and a year later promoted to brown , Keep in mind that they only meet 1 hour per week and almost never in summer . The problem was that the childs parent knew that the rank was undeserved and the worst part was watching this women go from school to school looking for a place that was easy enough that the child could maintain her self esteem . As to jujitsu , I am a practitioner of over 40 years and what is offered is very limited again almost non existent .
As I said befor the money in martial arts is in the children and this organization exploits this extremely well . The rip off is not only in offering an achieveable black belt program by qualified instructors (theft by deception ) it is in the lack of morality in the procees , these children leave with nothing more then a false sense of accomplishment at best and many with a bad taste for the arts . Most of the students never return to martial arts . For those that stay with the program , they believe they have a skill but I assure you that belief is false . I recently saw a tka brown belt with a couple years at that rank reduced to 7th gup at a local taekwondo school and the reduction was a direct representation of ability .
more truth to come
jOHN
I believe if you search the net you will find several references to the religous aspects of tka . I will agree that tka is secular in regards to recruitment and the reaping of profit . This is the only piece that is irrelevant to this post .
The main point to this post is that organizations like tka , and they are numerous are exactly what is wrong with martial arts today . They are compareable to fast food joints . The truth is that the cost per hour is about the same as a quality school and the quality of training is so poor that one is left starved for knowledge .
More then I would invite others to witness the spectacle of tka's tournament at the community college in rockville , I would encourage their students and any in a school like this to seek out another martial arts school and open thier eyes .
Well john I see that the main body of my posts remain undisputed by you and as I said my observations span 7 years and more then a thousand students and are absolute fact . Sorry that you took offense , I am sure you feel well trained however I can assure you that if you went through their program in the last ten years you are sadly mistaken . With 40+ years study in martial arts I will gaurantee you that I saw virtually no one in tka that would be deserving of their rank outside of their school and I personaly witnessed a senior black belt retraining the black belt instructors at a level equivilent to gup 7 to gup 5 .
AND THIS , is what is wrong with martial arts in america .
Truth
john ....one more for the road
I didn't address the 40 to 50 jr black belts , I never saw a child get there but if you ask your senior black belt , they don't believe in child black belts . Now given this , by your senior black belts standards , Kern would not have been recognized as a black belt ... ironic isn"t it ...given this by these standards , no one that followed in his foot steps would be qualified as a black belt .
An ironic twist of truth
Mr. Redfield,
First off, you have a great discussion board here; sorry for it being cluttered with stuff like this. I'll keep this to one reply; any other discussion or questions can be brought to e-mail.
Quick background - I was with TKA from 1983-2000; and was the only full time employee of Mr. Tompkins from 1994 - 2000. I'm no longer officially affiliated with TKA, so trust me, I don't have a dog in this fight but I do believe TKA had some of the best black belts that I've come across.
"Truth", as mentioned before, most grown-ups prefer to speak with real names. Man up with a name or drop the issue. So, instead of arguing over the internet, I'll make an offer to anyone on this board that lives in or will be visiting Maryland.
While I was there, TKA always had an open door policy. I think the only way to see a school's quality is to go train with them, right? Anyone in the area that would like to check them out should e-mail me. I'll get in touch with my old friends at TKA, we'll go out and train hard - just allow some time for pizza and beer afterwards. If there are any fees from TKA for the one workout (they probably won't charge), then I'll pay them. The only catch is that I'd like to hear a blunt, honest review afterwards.
Sound good?
To keep this on a positive note, Tang Soo Do students really have it good in the MD/DC/VA area. There are many quality instructors here, and you really should try to experience training with all of them if you are in the area.
James Roberts Jr. still runs Ki Whang Kim's old school in Rockville. Chang H. Park (dan #1278!) still teaches in Jessup. A few of Myung Seok Seo's black belts run schools in MD. Albano DaSilva is up in Frederick. There's no shortage, so train with as many as you can.
Anyone with any questions about TKA or other Tang Soo Do schools in MD, feel free to e-mail me and I'll try to help out.
Dale Carpenter
culturedredneck@yahoo.com
Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do
Da Silva is a good mention , He was an olympic medalist , runs a good school in Frederick Md with his brother . I hear he may even offer taekwondo there now . Anyway , to get a good black belt in his school , plan on 3 days per week and about 4 years . And TRUST me , Al will not honor your belt from Tompkins .... He was one of their better prospects that bailed 10 or more years ago when Tompkins went to absolute sh#@ . Yes , Albanio's students outclass Tompkins hands down ... And , No , you will not see Al's students at Tompkins Rockville spectacle , lucky for Tompkin's students .
The diference between DaSilva and Tompkins is that at DaSilva's school you learn right , you learn well , you retain the ability that you earned and you advance and no one will ever question your martial arts training ....At Tompkins you just move on , well , as long as you pay and sadly , believe that you deserve it . There seem to be a few of Tompkins students reading this board so if you guys really want to know what tang soo do is about then I sugest you take a class at Dasilvas . Trust me , you will thank me later .
The real chalenge here is when Tompkin;s students venture out into the real worid of martial arts . Sadly the drop out rate at Tompkins is phenominal and most don't pursue it further . But of all of Tompkins students I have ever encountered at other studios , it was a rude awakening for them .
Tang soo do really isn't big in the Washington D.C./Baltimore area . Mostly taekwondo and a lot of those are wtf then an even mix of the rest . What you are stating to see more and more is a blending of the arts and places like baltimoremartialarts.com where 10 diferent instructors share a studio offering 10 diferent styles . no international recognition but they seem to have a good folowing . At some point in this country some standards need to be set because belt rank at one school becomes absolutely worthless at another . Back to tang soo do , you can earn a solid black belt at DaSilvas .