I have been tooling around the net checking out time requirements between ranks, and I was quite surprised.I find that many schools seem not to have a time in grade minimum and seem to go by the classes or material learned. I have found people with 1st Dan within 2 years, and some with a year between 1st to 2nd degree some with 2 years between 3rd and Master, These are all Tang Soo Do schools, and the times were from the bio's of Instructors. Now my question is do you have a Time in Grade as well as Minimum Classes for Rank promotion? and if someone is proficient enough to pass and has the classes but not the time do you promote? or is the time in grade another part of the maturing process .


b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

to me I would like to thank its part of the maturing process. because I feel that A Jr black belt can not and will not live up to the responsibilities of a adult Black belt but altough I have seen some Adult blk belts that need to be jr blk belts blk belts...

Martial Art Style Tang soo do Mi guk Kwan

Well where I practise (Coulsdon, England) there is a grading every 3 months (so you try everytime if you want - or you can wait a little while if you think you're not ready) or so up to cho dan bo. Then there at LEAST 6 months before you can even attempt the black belt grading.

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

I remember in my TSD dojang there were time requirements. From 9th to 5th gup, you were able to test every three months. From 4th to cho dan bo, it went up to four months. Then at cho dan bo, there was a six month wait, at least, before you tested for cho dan. Then from 1st dan to 2nd, it was two years. From 2nd to 3rd, three years, ect.

Even in my TKD dojang, there is time requirements. Every three months till 2nd gup. You have a six month wait till 1st gup. Another six month wait till prob. BB (kinda like cho dan bo in TSD). Then another six month wait till BB. 1st dan to 2nd, two years, ect.

But if you didn't know your stuff, or didn't attend class regularly (in both), you would have to wait for the next testing. Or you have the choice to wait.

I have held the MINIMUM time in rank for my students as:

From 10th Gup to 4th Gup……..Minimum 3 months per rank
From 4th to 1st Gup……………….Minimum 6 months per rank
From 1st Gup to 1st Dan……….Minimum 1 year
From 1st Dan to 2nd Dan………Minimum 2 years
From 2nd Dan to 3rd Dan……….Minimum 3 year
From 3rd Dan to 4th Dan………Minimum 4 years
And so on…

We have to remember that this is a MINIMUM Time-in –Rank schedule, and NOT a guarantee of promotion schedule. If an instructor determines that there are contributing factors that may shorten these timelines; that is his/her prerogative.

Far too many students are conditioned to test on such schedules, even though they have not really achieved the level of expertise that they should have for their given rank. Students (and instructors) should learn to focus on the learning and earning, as apposed to the quick race to higher rank…


Just my thoughts…




Yours in Tang Soo Do,

Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

I don't have a codified time in rank schedule.


I fail 'em based on their poor performance.


But I'm skeptical of anyone who is a black belt in less than two years who has had no prior training. It just takes on average this long to acquire the base muscle memory for the skill level.

And don't get me started on academic knowledge...because I see a ton of 'Masters' who can't hold their own mentally against many of the 2nd and 3rd Dans of today.

JH

It took me almost 5 yrs to get my blk belt.

Martial Art Style Tang soo do Mi guk Kwan

We essentially do the same thing as Master Penfil in our federation.

Though meeting the required time in Grade (especially at Black Belt) does not gurantee a testing.

I would have to check but I have probably been a black belt since 86 I believe(I would have to dig up my 1st Dan Certificate to be 100% sure of the date) but that would put me personally as an active black Belt for somewhere between 20 and 18 or so years.

I was promoted to 4th on 1 July 2002. Definitely longer than the minimum 9 years time in grade requirements. I can assure you the extra time spent was certainly not a result of martial arts skill or knowledge, I live and breathe Martial Arts and have done so since 6 years of age.

But, there are other factors involved. I was promoted to First Dan at age 14, the board made an exception promoting me prior to my 16th Birthday.

Now, as a result of being young, I watched others who were older than me allowed to test for Second - (those I knew I was physically better than, technically better than, I beat them in fighting, my forms were more solid) but I lacked their maturity some of what comes from age. Over the years, my instructor has promoted me when he felt I was ready, not when I thought I was ready. I learned it is not about skill alone, it is not about the knowledge I retained...it was about a great many other things as well. My instructor has not hurt me, by holding me back, I honestly think it has made me better. In fact, I find I no longer care whether I test or not, or am promoted or not as long as I am learning, and bettering myself.

On a side note I am sure there is some politics involved as we move up and advance, but that is in life as well.

Also, at 33 I find I am one of the younger 4ths, if not the youngest,in my Federation, because it is more than throwing kicks and punches.

The minimum time in grade requirements for us, is simply the earliest one could possibly be eligible to test, not a gurantee of appearing before a board.

On one last note, there are some styles which simply give belts in what they call graduation ceremonies based on how long you have stuck around. One well known Arkansas organization Graduates you to black belt after paying enough money and staying in class for a year. Minimum time in grade is a tool to make sure the student not only learns it, but it settles in, and the test is to make sure they meet the qualifications. There are college courses I took in a Semester that I can remember nothing about as they built on nothing, and I only retained information until the next test. Martial Arts should not be like this, though in some schools it is. One friend of mine who doesn't use time in grade, has a system where you just need to know the material for the next test, and if you ask a 1st Gup of his to show you their third form the student won't remember it, but he will show you an adequate rendition of the form prior to black belt.

Jamie

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

I think we all know that everyone is different. We have students that train hard 3-5 days a week at the school and 2-3 other days a week outside of the school. Each student has different intelligence levels, different emotion quotients, education levels, attitude, physical skills, etc etc.

People are different and I come from the school of leadership that says that we lead people differently, not unfairly, but in fact, differently according to the need. Time in rank, time in Martial Art, degree of mastery of technical requirements should be GUIDELINES not hard and fast rules. What we need are leaders who can full understand their students and design a program to meet their needs. Unfortunately what we see mostly in the Martial Arts are a bunch of "middle managers" that only have the ability to work with people and organizations within very strict rules and regulations environment.

At our school we from testing every 3 months to testing every 4 months. I have a couple of students that may be able to double promote once or twice now because they typically show rank mastery in 2 months - am I going to hold them back because of some silly and arbitrary rule - NO WAY BABY. Most others I found show acceptable mastery in the 4 month window.

Should I require that people with fallen arches work out in their bare feet, should I make my "ausberger" student stand perfectly still all the time, should I require my ADD student to memorize Korean terminology (assuming that is there particular struggle), should I require my gifted athletes to be bored. I think we all know the answer.

If you really want to be a real instructor/coach and a school leader, publish guidelines, but let everyone know that they are guidelines that everyone has the opportunity to smash to smithereens.

In closing, I did not really address attitude - to me attitude is everything - technique is way way way too over rated in the typical karate school. The best way in my school to be held to the published guidelines is will a poor attitude and work ethic.

Ok let me have it.

Tang Soo and Happy New Year,
Dave Doty

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

OK Dave I'll bite,

First off,

Your first statement, about some students training 3-5days a week at the School and 2-3 days at home, (8days?)

It is a fact that students who practice 5 days a week do not progress any faster than students that practice 2-3 days a week.
Put simply, practicing 5 days a week is a form of "Mass Training" and as has been learned, reluctance to sustain work increases with the amount of practice. This reluctance is called Reactive Inhibition, and it decreases with rest. Repeating tasks for long periods of time with little rest(training every day), as in Massed practice, reduces performance due to a mental overload and physical fatigue.
So it is better to use the Distributed Practice method, like training every other day. While in the Long Run there will be No diference in learning between the two styles, you are less likely to get Burn Out with Distributed training.

Next to support your beleif in your training method you attack and name call anyone who does not subscribe to your idea, ie, "a bunch of middle managers that only have the ability..."
This goes back to your dislike of a certain Large Organization,I know all about your problems with certain large organization, as I have spoken to some of the Masters about it. Please keep to facts. LOL

Next you test every 4 months , no problems there, but next you talk about double promoting some students who show Mastery of Rank in 2 months. Double promote? I will use your words,"NO WAY BABY" you do a dis-service to the student you double promote by not giving his body a chance to ingrain the new skill (see articles on muscle memory) and the students brain still hasn't commited the new material to long term memory. And you do a diservice to the other students who now feel they are not learning the material and may get discouraged to the point of quiting.

Then you go back to your soapbox and with , "If you really want to be a real instructor/coach and a school leader" once again intimating that only if we do as you do will we be good instructors like you.

(Now I get to jump on my soapbox)
As for me I will stay a "Middle Manager" and stick to the time in grade requirements of the Association I am a proud member of . The Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan .

Tang Soo
b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

"Should I require that people with fallen arches work out in their bare feet, should I make my "ausberger" student stand perfectly still all the time, should I require my ADD student to memorize Korean terminology (assuming that is there particular struggle), should I require my gifted athletes to be bored. I think we all know the answer."
Most of the answers are yes. But, to the best of their ability. I work in the city schools tutoring reading. Does that mean I shouldn't make the ADD student learn how to read. No, but do it as best as they can. Instead of Making them learn 10 words in Korean, have them learn 1. I tested a person who had ADD & when it came time for the terminology, he knew 1 out of the 15 things I asked him. Guess what, he passed.

Yes I do agree with you that we have to take everyone as an individual, but they must also comply with our rules too. Rules say bare feet. It's bare feet. None of my students with fallen arches complain, I just give them accupressure points & exercises to help them.

I also know of your problem with bigger orgs. That's fine, but one of the advantages is networking. If Mr. Redfield needs someone to do reiki, he has his master. If I need an accupuncturist, I have 2 of my instructors. sometimes, it just makes things easier.
Isn't acceptable mastery kind of a contradiction? You either master it or not. Someday, I may master ha dan mah ki. Don't you mean acceptable ability since each person's ability is different.
JP

I overstated my case, as I always do. All of the points from both of you were right and well deserved criticism. It is healthy to humbled and put in my place from time to time. I love you guys.

Tang Soo and Go Pixsburg Stillers,

Dave

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

PIXSBURGHS GOING TO THE SUPER BOWL!!!!!!!!

Agreed on the points regarding students with limitations.

I have a student that has been training with me non-stop for over two years, he is dedicated, tries hard, works hard, but he is ADD and mildly autistic.

He is at the moment a 9th Gup and has after two years got his first hyung down and has memorized his kicks and punches.

The students that have stuck with it and started with him are now mostly 3rd Gups preparing to test for 2nd Red in February.

My question is essentially this, is black belt a line in the sand where one mentally has the knowledge requied to cross it, or is it subjective based upon a student's ability?

It pains me that I have not promoted this kid beyond 8th Gup, but at the same time the improvement he has shown and what he has accomplished this far is incredible for him. I keep waiting for the light to come on (I refuse to believe it will not) but I do not wish to cheat him either by simply giving him something to which he has not yet met the standard. I have done so by promoting him to eighth gup to help his confidence, but I cannot continue to promote indefinitely, until he meets the standard. I feel I am cheating him, and his parents are in agreement.

Any thoughts? It has crossed my mind that Mr. Doty is on to something in the past, but it also crossed my mind that to lower the standards for him is not necessarily helping him.

Jamie

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Yes it is a heart rending situation, but we must not make the mistake of letting emotions get in the way. Minimum standards must be met and not lowered to let a student meet them or the rank itself will become meaningless. I was going to suggest using the colored belts with the white stripe that runs thru the middle for challenged students but that may bring unwanted attention to the student. I wish I had an answer. I hope someone has an answer.

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

In regards to teaching him new forms, I would teach him a few moves at a time, not the whole form at one shot. Do not show him anything more till he has commited it to memory, that one section, over a period of time. In regards to his promotions, maybe, you can give him an honorary promotion. When doing so, I would write, or have it embroidered on his belt, honorary, such and such rank. On his certificate, make sure it says honorary on it, as well. When you would promote him, you would bring him in front of the class, & tell the class you are promoting so & so, because he has dedicated two years to training, has shown improvement, however he has had a hardtime retaining the material, but continues to show up for training, tries hard, is respectful, & has a good heart; & that you are giving this honorary promotion to him for his diligence, continuing his training, & hard work. You can say something along those lines, I cannot tell you what to say, but I'm sure the right words would come to you, if you choose to do so. I would talk it over w/ his parents 1st, see if their comfortable w/ it, then explain it to him, once you & his parents feel this is something you are comfortable with. I would also wanna tell the class prior to doing it, w/o him there, so they understand. I do not know if you use your own certificates, or if you belong to an association, & use theirs, but you might wanna design a certificate just for him, or that you could use in other similar situations. Just some ideas. What do you guys think?

David

What I used to do was have just two classes a week so I could help the ones who need my help the most. And it worked out pretty good. The highest I have ever promoted someone withh ADHD was 6th gup. It took about 1 yr and 9 months. Don't ask me how I did it I just did it.

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan

Everyone has different gifts and different struggles. I just don't like having to put a square peg into a round hole. GM Byrne of the American Tang Soo Do Association promoted my brother directly to Black Belt from 2nd Gup and he can't even kick above his own knee - on a good day. My brother is also very challenged in sparring having never won a single match in his 5 years of training nor did he win any medals for Hyung or breaking.

BUT, in his great wisdom, GM Byrne also awarded his most pretigous annual Black Belt of the Year Award to my brother at the 1998 annual ATA tournament.

My brother was a gifted teacher and his 17 students won 42 medals at that ATA tournament. He was a fantastic leader holding together a school that fell apart because the school owner preferred alcohol over Tang Soo Do. When he was just a 2nd Gup he was able to re-open the school that ended up producing an ATA Master and he develop several Black Belts.

In the "proud" system referenced, my brother would still be a 9th Gup. But rules are rules and standards are standards and that is the test of Martial Artist.

This reduces us to mere Martial sport when the ADHD are not welcome, Ausberger not welcome, Austicism not welcome, Angolosing Spondilitus not welcome. I hope we can all learn a lesson from GM Byrne.

Is it not the goal of the Martial ARTS to help people become the best they can be - or just a cookie cutter acceptable technician to the almighty standard.

It is not muscle, bones and brains that makes a Black Belt it is heart, passion and compassion.

In Yoda philosphy it is "No try - Just Do" in my dream world it is "Just Try Try Try".

Tang Soo
Dave

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do