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Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

Why Do Karate Students loose street fights?
What is your opinion on this subject?
For me the answer is that we do not train students hard enough, they are not prepared for the overwelming violence and anger they will be subjected to by an angry street fighter. We have to find a way to prepare them for the fear and doubt they will encounter during a actual fight, This is not done in dojangs, they are too friendly and safe. How can you prepare a student for this type of encounter???

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

Experience is the only teacher, they gotta get inta the mix to learn the trix

KC
Keepin it real

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

KC,

While I see the point I can't really see sending students out to fight in the streets, LOL My idea would be maybe to have some one dressed in street cloths scream all over you and attack, to simulate an actual attackers methods, while in the back of the students mind they will know it is staged it should help a bit right??


b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

Don't you train them to avoid fights? Shouldnt they walk away instead of fighting?

Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

Melanie, you are correct to a point,

While it is true we do teach students to avoid fights, if it comes down to having no alternative but to defend yourself, I assume it would be nice to be able to be successful in doing so.

I realize we are cultivating good morals and teaching students right from wrong, making them better people, which used to be done by Church, Parents School, but thats another thread, LOL But remember back to the essence of Karate we are supposed to be teaching fighting skills that work!

Learning Self Defense skills, being enrolled in a Karate program, implies being trained to be able to successfully defend yourself with skills learned in the dojang. If a student who has spent the time to earn a black belt, or even a green belt, cannot defend themseves in an actual encounter they might as well have spent the time learning knitting.

My point is how do we train them to be able defend themselves well enough to walk away after a confrontation, and not have their heinie handed to them by a punk after a jacket or sneakers??

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

I think a lot of it has to do with the individual and why they train and how they train. I dont think you can train for a street fight. There are too many factors that you cant simulate in a controlled environment (adrenaline rush, intent of someone to really hurt them, etc.). Sure, there are drills that you can do that may help students experience some of these momentarily. But like you say - in the back of their mind they know it is a controlled situation - even the attacker knows this. I agree we dont train students hard enough today and for a number of reasons

How many of your students train to defend themselves, their family, and those around them who cant defend themselves? How many just for exercise or stress relief? How many as an activity to do with their children? Of these groups - who do you think will be able to win or survive a street fight even without ever being in one 'for real'?
Who do you think would attend a class geared to intense training - the kind we had 25 years ago that made you 'hard'... that taught you that you could be hit and will be hit and that you had to keep going and fight back? Who would come to class, strap on the body armour and go almost full contact? Give them the skill and then it's all about mindset

Martial Art Style TSD

Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

Granted it has to do with the individual, and the reasons they train. But isn't one of the reasons in the back of their heads at least , to learn how to defend themselves??

Do we not have the obligation to actually be sure they are able to fight?

Or have we become more like the Boy Scouts and only teach them how to be Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful,Friendly, Courtieous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerlful, Thrifty, Brave , Clean,and Reverent?? with Forms and some point Sparring thrown in.

I just am trying to get the point across that I think we should push it up a level and start making good fighters who can mix it up when needed, and how you think we can acomplish this.

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

B,

That's because back in the day, they already knew right from wronge and ther family was tight, Now you got Karate teachin the values kids should already have from the parents-church and such. You are on the money with teaching how to fight. These days commercial clubs can not teach the way correct because the money will not be there so they get all spritual about it with meditating and all, but back when it all started it was dog eat dog and fight or die and we trained hard for a hard world. Now its all sippy cup pinkie finger out karate, to keep enrollments up to pay rent and make soccer mom happy with jr.
screw enrollment make warriors not victems.

KC
keepin it real

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

Sippy Cup Pinky-Finger Out Karate???

Truley you have a way with the English Language ROFLMAO

But really how do you really feel!

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

KC hits it right on the head.... commercial schools are almost forced to sellout to pay the rent.... What do you think mom and dad are going to do the first time junior comes out of class with a bloody nose???? If you dont care about losing that tuition then teach the way you want otherwise you'll keep junior and his friends in class and water it down so you can keep them as long as possible.

You cant force people to train for self defense on any level. They all have their own reason and if self defense wasnt one of them it wont be until its too late for them.

One thought also on why 'back in the day' you could get away with being more 'intense', for lack of a better word, was there werent as many options then....if school A was too rough for you then you didnt have much choice if you wanted to train.... You also didnt know any other way to train because Tiger Tot Dojang wasnt down the road for you to go watch and see anything different.

In the end Mr Redfield, I think you teach the 'right' way and let the students decide if it is for them or not..... Hopefully you either dont teach for a living or keep enough to pay the bills. Whatever you do, try not to compromise, that is a greater disservice than bloodying Johnny's nose...

Martial Art Style TSD

Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

Well...I definitly din't get into Karate to be able to survive a streetfight. But maybe that is only because my pure angellike self just doesnt get into fights....

We also have to see that the environment has changed. Ages ago, a fight was a fight without weapons. Now, if you get into a fight on teh street, your oponent might have a gun. Then you can be a 7th degree black belt in whatever style...
And there are cops almost everywhere. The need to defend your life, your family and your property is not really there anymore.

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

I would have to disagree with you Melanie.

While we do, in general, benefit from great police protection, the police are not everywhere. I've known people that were mugged and/or assaulted before. These kind of events happen pretty fast and the police dont really have all that much chance to get involved until after the fact, usually.

While, percentage wise, your chance of ever having to defend yourself is pretty low, that is a chance I dont beleive in taking. I wish I trained harder.

I think it is harder to get children to take a class seriously, more so then adults.

I think you have a pretty good idea there Mr Redfield.

Martial Art Style Tand Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan, Haedong Gumdo

Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

Maybe I just notice police everywhere because you never see a copcar in Germany. To me it seems they are just everywhere here....

I actually had a dream a few weeks ago...

I was out and someone attacked me - just grabbed my wrist and wanted to do mug me or whatever.

And I was unable to do defend myself. Couldnt do anything.

That was scary.

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

IMO, that we are teaching SD wrong. You dont teach people to just grab ahold of somone's wrist, or just choke them, & stand there. If somone's gonna grab somone, their gonna do so to push somone, pull somone, or throw somone, etc. Alot of choke defenses I see, people just put their hands around somone's neck, & they just stand there. I wish somone would do that to me on the street, lol. When somone goes to choke you, their goons grab you around your neck, throw you up against a wall, or unto the ground, etc.
Then some punch defenses we learn are just ludicris, like one steps, throw them out, in the trash, IMO. People are gonna keep comming after you, w/ punches from every angle in the world w/ combonations, etc. No one's gonna throw a punch, & leave it out there, so you can do all these fancy techniques, their gonna try to take your head off. Same thing w/ knife defenses, in a knife fight, or defending against a knife, you're gonna get cut, if the person has intention. Their gonna come slashing at you from every angle, stabbing you repididly. This is the kinda stuff we need to be practicing against, cause this is the way it's gonna happen. Knife self defense, put on a black shirt/uniform, get some training blades, & put chalk on the the edge of the training blades, & just go at it, & see the chalk lines on your uniform/shirt. Put the SD gear on, I think they call it red man, (correct?) & just let them go at it full force, & practice against this kinda stuff, as well. If you're gonna teach SD, we need to also teach SD from vulnerable positions, as well. Like being strapped in your seat belt in a car, somone attacking you (this has happened to me, it is not fun), sitting on a throne in a public restroom & somone grabs your legs from underneath a stall, if you're at a booth in a public restraunt, etc. This is the stuff we need to think about, because you know what, it just might happen. Today's society is very violent, & we need to be prepared for it; sad to say!

David

Re: Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

I guess I was lucky.

Growing up my brother was 3 years older then I and always a lot bigger, at least until it didnt matter anymore.

When he was 15 he was 6'2" and 245lbs. I was 12 and maybe 109lbs. We didnt fight to the death, but he really taught me how to take a hit. I used to hit him in the nose when I couldnt take much more, get his eyes tearing up and then run like hell. Unfortunately, I would have to eventually come home.

About your dream though, that is something everyone has to learn to come to grips with. Fear. While I am not a dan in Tang Soo Do, I do know that in certain situation a paralyzing fear will get you killed. YOu have to act, do something. It's hard to train for that though.

It's also hard to make people willing to actually harm another person. Most people are taught that to hurt someone is bad. It's a pretty tough thing to get over. I think it is easier if someone you care for is being attacked as opposed to you yourself.

Martial Art Style Tand Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan, Haedong Gumdo

Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

Melanie,

Here is an interesting article on just that response By DR. WILL HORTON

(This article is courtesy of and © CFW Enterprises Incorporated. All Rights Reserved.)

You're in a situation with your wife that makes you nervous. Your car has broken down, it's dark, and you're in a bad part of town. Your try to tell yourself to relax. You're a martial artist with years of training. A shabbily-dressed man approaches you. Your stomach tightens. He asks for "spare change" for a drink. You refuse but he persists. You start to walk away and he follows. You can smell the alcohol on his breath. He starts to reach out to you and you pull away. You back up, your wife behind you. You do not want trouble. Does he read this action as fear? Predators feed on fear, you remind yourself. He stalks closer, he eyes moving behind you to your wife. He has crossed your safety line. You get feelings you tell yourself you should not have doubt and fear. You tell yourself to be calm but it worsens. You don't know what to do. You're frozen in indecision. Fear overcomes you. Your heart races and you have trouble catching your breath. Your hands shake, your vision narrows, your hearing shuts down, and your mind races with negative thoughts. Where is my Zen-like peace? Where are the techniques I've worked on for so many years? Why am I afraid? You pray your skills will kick in, but will they?

Every martial artist's deepest fear is that when they need their combat training to defend themselves or their loved ones, they will hesitate or freeze. Most martial artists spend years sharpening their physical skills, yet spend little or no time developing their mental ones. They fall into the trap of thinking that physical techniques alone will ensure peace of mind in a violent encounter. Then when a real fight occurs, they are shocked at their response. Many quit training in the martial arts after such an experience, thinking their art failed them, or that they failed their art. In reality, though, they only neglected to train their brains as well as their bodies.

Mind Training

To train the mind to resist fear, you must first be able to realize the difference between an "adrenal push" and its physical effects, and the psychological state we label as fear, and make friends with both. Only then can you put them to good use. The first part is to separate our physical responses from our psychological interpretations of them.

Fear is defined as a strong, often unpleasant, emotional and physical response to real or perceived danger. Adrenaline is a natural hormone secreted by the adrenal glands that are nature's response to stressful environmental triggers. Its only job is to prepare the body for action be it fight or flight. Fear should be your ally. The process of fear comes in basically four steps.

1) Pre-Event Adrenal Drip: This state occurs often. Many people refer to it as a stress reaction. You're tense, slightly nervous and on edge. If this state is prolonged it can exhaust you. This is why stressful jobs "burn" you out. This state is intended to put you on alert physically and mentally. It also releases neuro-transmitters for heightened mental focus. Fear of fear can increase this.

2) In-Event, Primary Adrenal Dump: This occurs rapidly and very intensely. It is when your adrenal glands "dump" large amounts of the hormone into your system. This is to prepare you for major physical activity. The effects of adrenaline are varied, but it is important too remember that this state is the ultimate survival tool. Adrenaline can cause a variety of effects to the body. It can tighten the muscles in preparation for trauma. It will cause visual exclusion or narrowing of vision, which causes you to lose your peripheral vision, creating tunnel vision. It leads to auditory exclusion, in which you lose a high percentage of your hearing this is why athletes can't hear the crowds at athletic events. Adrenaline can speed up the heart rate. It can release ATP to give extra physical strength, but it can also cause rapid exhaustion, giving you the shakes. Mentally, it can cause rapid cognitive activity, giving you an overload of thoughts usually negative which can flood your mind, making you feel overwhelmed. It can also increase your breathing rate. These things, in and of themselves, are bad and are not to be feared. They prepare your body for action. People that channel this into productive use excel in tense and stressful situations. These are the people who do better on rank tests, fights and other events when most people go down a notch.

3) In-Event, Secondary Adrenal Dump: This is a second dump which increases the effects of the above, as well as blocks pain, gives a secondary rush of energy, and creates extra negative thoughts. This state is intended to give you that "second wind," of extra physical endurance, strength, and power to finish your task. This state explains why some people get better as a game, or fight, goes on. This is why in football, some athletes go out of their way to get hit a few times, in order to "get into the flow of the game."

4) Post-Event Adrenal Drip. After an event, the adrenal glands secrete small amounts of adrenaline. This causes slightly higher physical tension and leads to mentally repeating the event and reliving the fight. This state is much like the first and is intended to help your body readjust to the effects of the stressful event. This leads to physical and mental exhaustion.

Channeling Fear Into Power

Once it is understood that the physical states of fear are intended to help you, the importance of not labeling these as "good" or "bad" is obvious. Just accept these states, then let the mind take over and channel the extra energy from the adrenaline to your own use. To learn to harness fear, the first step is to recognize that it is normal. Insight and knowledge opens the door to channel this wonderful, power-packed state into something that can give you an edge in hostile situations. The first step is to find and identify the first feelings of fear the pre-event adrenaline release: How do you feel? Where do you feel it (stomach, chest, shoulders, back, et cetera)? What is your state of mind? To do this exercise, think of something that makes you fearful such as a confrontation with your boss, an IRS audit, or stepping onto the mat for a tournament fight. Relive the situation, note the above sensations, label the information, and store it.

Next, think of a time you were at your very best and were physically and mentally sharp. It could be a tournament you did well at, an academic test, or a business deal. Now imagine a circle on the floor. This is your circle of excellence and power. What color is this circle? Does it have a sound, a taste, a smell? Do this until you've established a recognizable and identifiable presence for it.

Now, think of your positive event and step into your circle pull the circle into you. Throw your shoulders back. Feel the focus and the power. Repeat this twice. Now step out of the circle and access your fearful state. As you begin to feel the fear (the adrenaline state), step back into your circle and breathe in deeply. Do this five times. This is the first step in turning fear into power. Now, when your body starts to access the state of fear, it will naturally go into the circle of power. The more often you do this training, the more automatic the response will be when confronted by a stressful situation. As Tsunetome Yamamoto, an 18th century samurai, said, "The realization of certain death should be renewed every morning. Each morning, you must prepare yourself for every kind of death with composure of mind. Imagine yourself broken by bows, guns, spears, swords, carried off by floods, leaping into a huge fire, struck by lightening, torn apart by earthquakes, plunging from a cliff, or as a disease-ridden corpse."

It may sound morbid, but if you can imagine your deepest fears, death, humiliation, loss of pride, and step into power, you will be in a better position to face whatever comes your way. It will help you to develop the heart of a warrior.

Dr. Will Horton, a martial artist and the founder of The National Federation of Neurolinguistic Psychology, is available for consultation, speaking engagements, or seminars by calling 800-758-4635, or visiting www.niptoday.com.

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

Bernard,

The answer is fairly simple. I can teach a guy or gal to be a good street fighter in a couple of months and usually the guy will be a better fighter than my traditional students for a year or more. Easily. When I have taught or participated as an assistant instructor at self-defense seminars, in the past at police academy's, Sheriff's Departments or the military I have to teach the participants differently than I would my traditional students. As a result they are prepared to fight at the end of a two or 4 week seminar much better than the traditional student I have had for 8 months or more.

The difference is, I am taking the traditionally trained student and I am teaching him to move in ways he or she has not moved before (the seminar student I am forced to use they way they already move to deliver a technique often, adapting the technique so they can perform it given their limitations). The traditional student I am adapting them to perform the technique the most efficient way possible, I am teaching them something that has to be practiced and mastered. They learn all of these things, and while it takes more time they eventually pass my seminar students and eventually reach a place the seminar students will never get without the traditional training. To make an adequate street fighter takes weeks, to make a great martial artist and fighter takes years. If you had a choice to get hit by a red belt female (in our system she will have had in excess of 2 years training) weighing 110 lbs trained by me or many other instructors, or a big burly 6ft 210 lbs Army Ranger trained in a 2 week seminar, if you chose the female redbelt one would find they made a mistake. Her stances, her speed, her focus, the way she transferred power would likely be much more devastating than the more physically imposing gentleman. But, these things take time to learn, and once learned it takes further time to learn how to apply the tools one has collected. In other words, if she has a devasting punch or sidekick or whatever but lacks the knowledge necessary to land it, then it is worthless in self defense. It is the instructors job to make sure she knows how to use what and when.

It is a slow learning process I have found and the worst fighter in the world is usually a beginning student, but by the time a well trained Martial Artist approaches black belt they usually far surpass the street fighter if taught properly and prepared properly (they must be mentally prepared to handle a real life out of the Dojang encounter). And being in agreement with what has generally been said, it is the instructors job to eventually get student physically and mentally ready. But, we have to teach them, to crawl, walk, run and then fly (not literally flying is not recommended in a street fight unless you are Superman and they are krptoniteless.)

Anyway, just my take having taught both more traditional classes and contractual seminars over the years. Anyone who has taught people with limited martial arts experience in short job related seminars (bouncing, law enforcement, rape prevention) I would assume have found some similar problems. It is difficult to teach them proper body movement (out of the question to teach them things they have to practice daily in most cases-they won't) it is difficult to teach them most of what you need to impart in the few days you may have available, generally I find I have to adapt the techniques to the student so that they can use them and not in the traditional sense (where I have time) adapt the student to perform the technique most effectively or optimally. Most often the Seminar student (I am not talking about Martial Arts Seminars for Martial Artists but non-martial artists) lacks good body movement, foundation (stances required in kinetic linking, speed required to develop force (F=M*A) and so forth. You have to make their training practical and effective given the fact one has only 2 or 4 weeks to train them, especially when what you are teaching them often HAS to work or you are putting them in greater danger than when they started the seminar. Taking certain shortcuts from the traditional enables them to perform the techniques based on the time frame, allows you to teach them more in a shorter interval, but they will seldom if ever be as effective as one's red belts unless they have an interest in the martial arts and take lessons after the seminar.

Jamie

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

I know what your saying, I did some clinics for the Army when my brother was in the 82nd -10th then for the Reserves, they were all great and eager to learn, but jeez, I thought they were going to kill each other! I was teaching joint attacks, locks and throws, the real fun stuff, thts quick and doesn't take alot of techniques to do, they picked it up quick. But they would have taken alot of work to make them martial artists.

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

The 10th Mountain???

Fort Drum, Land of the Frozen Chosen? If so, I too froze my touche off in the 10th :)

But, you definitely understand what I was saying. No matter how quickly they pick up it is a long way from being shall we say optimal. One thing I noticed teaching police, I usually can teach them an arm bar, but it becomes difficult teaching them the subtleties between differening but similar arm bars or wrist or other joint locks. It seems best to teach them generally one or two ways to get the "actor" into position and then take them down, whereas most of my senior students grasp the concept behind the lock and realize to get the same result for example all they have to do is adjust the angle relative to the "actors" body. One has a better developed understanding of the technique than the other, and this better developed understanding comes from more time studying.

One thing I have found really useful in working with Police officers in the past, they are loaded with hands on practical information, and they often have great information on how a potential attacker or so forth would react in certain circumstances. Their hands on real life experience has often been a great educator, teaching me a thing or two.

Jamie

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

Ok, that was just plain ignorant.....sounds like the makings of a true victim to me!!

JP

Re: Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

I believe that it is not just the intensity of training, but what is being trained that is important....most "karate" schools don't spend nearly enough time training realistic self-defense techniques. Bottom line.....and while we're at it, I don't think it is the place of a martial arts teacher to be teaching morals and values....that, as pointed out earlier, should be left to parents, churches, etc.

JP

Re: Re: Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

Ok, that was just plain ignorant.....sounds like the makings of a true victim to me!!

JP

How is that? Why the insult?

David

Re: Re: Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

In both Okinawa, & mainland Japan, there are three areas of development, Shin, Gi, Tai; or Heart/mind, technique, & Body. Of these three the most important is the development of a good heart. This was originally done alonw w/ not only memorizing the Dojo kun, but living it as well; Along w/ Ikebana(flower arrangement), bonsai, shodo(calligraphy), & music, studying, etc.
As you might/probablly know they use the same kanji/character, shin, for both heart, & mind. The reason being is that they feel that they are one in the same. They go by the saying of Bun Bu Ryo Do, or basically that the way of the warrior, & scholar are one in the same.
However most/alot of people here in the western world do not teach, or overlook this type of training, & just pay the Dojo kun, as lip service. They dont live it, to most it's just a bunch of words, but dont delve into it. Budo, is just as it says, it is a way (of life). As a way of life, it is something that cannot be bought, as how are you gonna purchase a way of life? Most now have "Schools, or clubs" , they do not have a dojo/dojang, because these Kanji/characters for these words mean way place. So you are comming to a place to study a complete way of life, not to purchase a service. Budo is something personal, it is many things to different people, sometimes our view point might change, as we grow, & learn. I know mine sure has changed over the yrs. While you may not agree w/ what I am saying, that is ok as well, cause this is jst my opinion, as I said it is different things to different people, at different points in your life. This is just my view of what it is in this point in my life.

David

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Replying to:

I believe that it is not just the intensity of training, but what is being trained that is important....most "karate" schools don't spend nearly enough time training realistic self-defense techniques. Bottom line.....and while we're at it, I don't think it is the place of a martial arts teacher to be teaching morals and values....that, as pointed out earlier, should be left to parents, churches, etc.

JP

Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

"And there are cops almost everywhere. The need to defend your life, your family and your property is not really there anymore"

It was not meant as an insult....just pointing out that the above statement is ignorant, as in not in touch with reality, unaware of the truth of the situation....I'm one of those cops who are "everywhere" and I can tell you that we are NOT....to assume that someone else is going to be responsible for your personal safety is unreasonable, irrational, and irresponsible....and a very dangerous and uninformed mindset. And to say that the need to defend your life family and property no longer exists!! Come on!! You must be kidding, right?

JP

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

I see the problem, the post did not end up under Melanie's it ended up under Davids

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

@Jon P

I was more thinking about fights in bars etc and not so much of an assault on an empty street/ a public bathroom/ at the red traffic light.

Where I go out, they have cops in the entrance of the bars, the have copcars parked in front of the bars etc...and that is downtown Stamford. So that was in the back of my mind.

Where I grew up, you didnt see a cop at all. America has a great police presence, at least where I do live now. Maybe you have to have lived somewhere else to realize that.

And what else i meant is, that when you get attacked now, don't the robbers want your money/jacket/car rather then your life? If they want your life, the will probably have a gun and then you as a martial artist can't really do much about it. So what you would fight to defend is your possesions.

I don't think it is appropriate to call me ignorant here.
Maybe politely ask what a person is referring to before you get unfriendly.

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

I also never made anyone responsible for my own defense.
Otherwise I would not be taking Karate, but walk around in strange areas dangeling my purse around my arm and wearing high heels and a miniskirt and park my car far away from the entrance of a parking lot in a dark spot.

We were trying to find reasons why training has changed from the past. If someone is under permanent thread they will ofcourse train in a different way then someone who doesnt need to defend himself on a daily basis or is less likely to get into a situation.

This doesnt mean that I am not aware of the fact that I might be a victim someday.

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

It wasnt me that said it. Sometimes this board will have a mind of it's own, & put posts where it wants to, for some reason.

David

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Replying to:

"And there are cops almost everywhere. The need to defend your life, your family and your property is not really there anymore"

It was not meant as an insult....just pointing out that the above statement is ignorant, as in not in touch with reality, unaware of the truth of the situation....I'm one of those cops who are "everywhere" and I can tell you that we are NOT....to assume that someone else is going to be responsible for your personal safety is unreasonable, irrational, and irresponsible....and a very dangerous and uninformed mindset. And to say that the need to defend your life family and property no longer exists!! Come on!! You must be kidding, right?

JP

Re: Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

First, I was not intending my comment as a personal attack on you, just your comment....it was ignorant, i.e. based upon a lack of realistic understanding of the situation. Trust me, I run into people everyday who are victimized unnecessarily. And yes, to say that there is always a cop around IS shrugging off your responsibility for your personal security on the police. Yes, it is the job of the police to protect the public, but it is also the job of the public to use good judgement and common sense about the way that they conduct themselves to avoid becoming a victim. You sound like a reasonable, law abiding person, so your chances of becoming a victim are fairly slim, as long as you take reasonable precautions. Most who are victims, particularly of violent crime, are criminals themselves. Now, you said that you did not get into karate to survive a street fight, but in your last post, you imply that you do take karate to take responsibility for your own defense??

And yes, you do make a good point about weapons....many criminals (although not most) do use weapons to committ their crimes. However, most use them more for psychological intimidation more than anything, and are not skilled in their use. However, it is dangerous to make the assumption that just because they want to rob you of your possessions that they will not also harm you. No, I will not risk my life for personal property, but it is a judgement call that you have to make on whether or not the person will also attempt to cause you harm....and to imply or assume that there is basically no way to defend yourself against an armed subject is also not realistic.

JP

Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

I think we have a different definition of street fights..to me that is something that happens to more or less bad tempered people after a visit to the bar..if I would get assaulted or mugged and would have to defend myself I wouldnt call that a street fight. If it is considered a streetfight, then ofcourse i am also taking karate to be able to defend myself in a street fight.
ofcourse there are more reasons for me getting into karate. maybe it would be interesting open up a new discussion for that.

Being able to defend yourself against assault with a gun probably depends on the level of your training...I don't think i am that far yet.....

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

That makes more sense, since you clarified your point.....also, in regards to defending against a gun, you are correct....it is certainly never an easy thing when facing an attacker armed with ANY kind of weapon...although your best bet is to be armed yourself!!

JP

Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

I am not a native speaker..so sometimes I dont express myself that well/clearly.

Does that mean you carry a weapon? Besides during your work in the Police?

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

Almost always & everywhere...and I don't know too many police officers who don't, even off duty.

JP

Re: Re: Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

Jon,

I cannot speak for everywhere, or every cop. But, here in Town when I used to do security, I've called them before, & took forever to get there, & some did not wanna do their job. One day a guy came on property, that had a tresspass warrant on him, he was in a car. That paticular day, the cop must of been right around the corner, because he responded pretty fast, but when he got there, the cop went up to the car, I pointed out who he is, but he went around to the drivers side, the guy tresspassed was in the passenger seat, & took off running. He started arresting the other guy, I asked him what is he doing? He said he's arresting him. I told him you're arresting the wrong guy, & that he took off running. He said he didnt see him. I asked how can you not see him, he opened the door, & took off running? He said he's not gonna chase after him. This was in a lower income housing complex, & I've lived in some of the not best areas in the world. I've noticed sometimes it might take cops anywhere from 10 minutes to an hr to respond. That is ridiculous. By that time, the situation is over, & somone could be dead. I think this is the type of stuff that gives cops a bad rap. Like I said, some, not all. So I know where she's comming from.

David

Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

Hi David,

I was the one believing into the Police Force....I guess I have been very lucky sofar, not being in any bad situations.

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

Well, look, it's like anything...there are good cops and bad cops, just like any other profession. There are some who go out of their way to do a good job and take pride in their work, and then there are others who do the minimum to not get fired....

I can't speak to the situation, because I wasn't there....but I can say this. Getting involved in a foot pursuit is one of the most dangerous things an officer can do...especially with no backup and multiple suspects. If he has the guys name, and he already has a warrant on him, there's no immediate need to capture the guy...just go sign a warrant on him later for fleeing (besides, I think you saud the original offense was trespass, right? meaning he wouldn't leave the property--if he takes off, problem solved--for the time being. No need to risk injury and enter into a dangerous situation when it's not necessary. Now if there were some type of exigency or danger to the public, or if he didn't have a positive ID on the guy, that's another thing...

As far as response time, that varies by jurisdiction, but in almost all cases, calls are prioritized and dispatched in order of severity. Of course, to the caller, everything is always an emergency....but, in reality, most are not. Even most so-called "emergency" calls that are dispatches as such turn out to be something for which a routine response would have been appropriate. You have to weigh the benefit of getting there quickly vs. the risk to the officer and public of having to respond with emergency traffic....another factor also is the time it takes to dispatch. Depending upon a number of factors, a call may be held by the dispatcher or 911 operator for a while before being dispatched....some of this may relate to policy issues depending upon the type of call, availability of units and back-up units, and how busy the dispatcher is...I've received calls where my response time was under a minute, yet the call is 20-30 minutes old....trust me, this can be equally frustrating for officers too, especially things like alarm calls, where every second that goes by reduces the likelyhood of actually apprehending a suspect. I don't know what the jurisdiction you are in is like, but I work in a large metropolitan department (one of the largest in the southeast) with over 1,600 sworn officers.

JP

Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

I have an interesting Cop story that occurred in the early 90s while I was in college at the University of Georgia. It showed me two things, one cops are not like they are on television they are human and two perhaps they are not crazy.

I was working at night at a gas station convienience store. We gave free coffee and doughnuts and such to the police, so they came by often when changing shifts and so forth. Which is good, this is why the store had the policy. Well, when they came by they would always park their cruiser behind the carwash where it could not be seen from the street and would walk to the store.

One night while working one of the cruisers pulled up and parked. I saw it and even waived to them as they parked as I knew the officers, they were regulars. Well, right after they parked another beat up Cadillac pulled up next to the store. In came a guy, and pulled a gun out on me and told me to give him all of the money. Well, I was scared and started to comply (he had a gun and looked like he might use it.)

Well, as he is standing there with the gun, the two officers walked into the door, he glances at them and says "Get the *blank* outta here or I will...." I remember his words trailing off as he stared at the two officers, and next the words "OH Sh**!!!" came out of his mouth. This gas station had two doors one on each side, well the would be robber ran out the opposite door the police came in, which at first seemed good because his gettaway car was there.

Well, honor among theives being what it is, his partner must have noticed the police and just as the guy made it out the door the Cadillac pulled out, leaving the would be robber screaming at the driver to get back her before he shot him.

The police officers continued to stand motionless at the door, glancing at each other as if they could not believe what was taking place. Finally, I remember yelling "Get him!" The police snapped out of it and rushed through the store out the other side. The would be robber seeing them coming took off on foot. The two officers stopped at the other side of the door, with weapons drawn. I yell, "shoot him!" They don't.

Instead they stand there and watch the robber run away and call for back up on their radios. I leave the store and insist they go after him!

One of the officers looks at me as if I were out of my mind and asks, "Do you think we're crazy? He has a gun!"

Later they explained that they could not shoot him as he did not directly threaten the officers with the weapon, and as soon as it was not pointed at me they could no longer shoot him as he was fleeing. As for following him into the dark, well they weren't going to do that and risk getting shot.

The robber got away that day, but I got a hillarious story out of it that still makes me chuckle after the fact. Though I assure you, it was not funny at the time.

Jamie

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

Well, again, I wasn't there and don't know all the detail....but just going on what you told me...sounds like a severe lack of proper training at the least, bordering on neglect of duty, in this instance. Look, as LEO's there's no sense in taking careless risks...but, there are calculated risks associated with the job, and, like it or not, we get paid to take those risks....we are supposed to apprehend the bad guys, and it sounds like, if these guys are too afraid to do their job just cause someone has a gun, they might want to look into another career field....just my humble opinion. One thing I can't stand in the law enforcement profession (and I see it where I work too out of some officers) is cowardice!

JP

PS-I'm not trying to bash these officers. Just offering my opinion based upon my experiences. I DO have standing to talk about this, because I have been in some very similar situations before (which ended quite differently though).

Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

JP,

Agreed, this was not the way they should have handled the situation (though I don't pretend to know how they should have handled it) but for my part being a citizen, I would definitely had liked at least to have heard the words "STOP, FREEZE" or some such as the bad guy was fleeing.

However, to my surprise the officers were more startled than the would be Robber.

But, as time has moved on, I am just glad they walked in at all. I assume he (the robber) would have taken the money and left, but I don't know for certain what would have happened had they not walked in. Guess, when looking back (even though the guy got away, and they (the officers) perhaps were less than stellar) their mere presence was a blessing for me that night.

Jamie

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

I will admit I haven't read all of your posts , yet but ...I will

Mind set , the street is a way of life , you live it , you learn to survive or you die , you see the worst of society , you see death , you see the stabings , the shootings , the beatings ...most of you couldn't begin to understand ...you arm yourself ,physically ,mentally , weapons ,,,, hell everything becomes a weapon ....truthfully , you almost need to go to war to understand it ,,, it trains you in the hardest way ...and what works in "fighting" becomes common street knowledge .

I really need to give this some thought as to weather to and how much to continue on this course of discussion ... But you have a good question , how do you teach someone to handle this . It is really something most people can't even comprehend let alone master .

Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

I will stay away from philosophy in my response, as to explain the way of the warrior adequately would take too long and I assume most here already understand the concepts.

Instead, I will answer this way. To be prepared for War one need not have been in an actual War. Some of my good friends have been and are currently engaged in War, what prepared them was training. Every veteran of War was once new. Yet, when they arrived on the field of battle they were well prepared to fight. As a soldier does, martial artist train to respond in certain ways to certain stimuli, and when we can respond without conscious effort, it becomes second nature and we are prepared for self-defense as is the soldier who is prepared for self-defense as the soldier is prepared for war. Any soldier out there will tell you, when the stuff hits the fan, confusion reigns supreme, your heart is in your throat, it is the training that brings one through. You react in the manner you were trained to react. If your training is wrong one will react wrong, if one's training is correct one will react correctly. The more realistic and practicle one's training the more effective one will be. Train with as much realism as possible, keeping in the mind the end results and in Martial Arts schools remember it is counterproductive to injure someone who is at your school to keep from being injured.

Lastly, streetfighters are usually awful fighters armed with "dirty tricks." We prepare our students for "dirty tricks" and prepare them to use "dirty tricks" the average streetfighter is outclassed by far by an advanced student. (Remember the goal is survival and avoidance of injury in these situations)Example, if one attacked one of my students on the street and their was a tire iron handy, the streetfighter might ("depending on the threat level") end up with it against the side of his head. I am assuming our streetfighter to be an attacker out to do serious bodily harm, not a playground bully.

It is about the preparation, period. Both physical and mental. You can have great training or experience. I won't tell my students to go and fight (I prefer them to be experts in avoiding fights or situations involving fighting) so I substitute Great Training and hope they never have to gain experience in actual fights. Having got the experience myself, (stupidly when I was younger I knew better but put myself in danger to prove perhaps to myself I was "good") found that the only thing experience had to offer me was reassurance the techniques worked and confidence that I could defend myself. There are better ways to build this confidence in students, and to remove to teach them to let "loose" if the time ever arises.

Finally Mr. Chuck Norris, a fellow Tang Soo Do artist, I have been told has never been in a real fight in his life. I have never met anyone that has actually trained with him or under him, or worked out with him say the Man could not fight. This includes former U.S. Military personnel involved in War, police officers ("bet JP can attest") who frequently get into scuffles with everything ranging from irrate soccer moms, drunks to the hardened criminals who would rather not be arrested. Shoot some of these folks directly credit Mr. Norris with helping teach them the skills they needed to protect themselves performing their duty, and the positive attitude required to succeed in life.

So, let's not send our students down to the local bar district to become mere paltry streetfighters (yes, there is definite disdain here), to gain experience. Lets train them properly to be Martial Artists, impart skill and wisdom unto them and create true Martial Warriors in mind and body, not gutter dwelling streetfighters and ruffians. There are too many of the latter, and never enough of the former IMO.

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

Time to start a new thread ?

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

I wanted to revisit this thread .

I was able to watch a few more schools and almost all emphasize forms , history and traditions and it seemed to reinforce in me that it is for the most part B.S. Of all the karate schools that I have seen virtually none of the students had any real skill in self defense or fighting when compared to their investment in time .
I began thinking about all the books and videos that I have sifted through , perhaps thousands , searching for "knowledge", seeking to further my ability .
I am now of the opinion that the art of fighting and for the most part todays martial arts schools have very little in common .

Re: Why Do Karate Students loose street fights

I found myself again contemplating the first post in this thread