Redfield Martial Arts Message Board

TANG SOO DO Discussion Board
Start a New Topic 
Author
Comment
Traditional but realistic

On another forum somone brought up that they are struggling w/ the traditional methods of doing things. I too have thought about this in the past, & thought it would be a good topic.
As Bruce Lee has said, I "absorb what is useful". However, with that being said, I consider myself realistic, but yet traditional. I personally think you can do both. The most important thing we can gain from the physical training in martial arts, IMO, is body mechanics. While in a fight we might not punch from the classical chambering position like done in class, but it teaches us how to generate proper mechanics of how to develop a powerful punch. You might not do Bunkai just as it is in the Kata/Hyung, but in a fight/self defense situation, all of a sudden you do a piece of Kata/Hyung & not realize it till later; Because your body is responding to something you have trained over, & over for years. I say lets keep our tradition, but yet be realistic, if you see a technique that works, absorb it, dont disregard it because it isnt from within your style. As most of you know, I no longer practice TSD anymore, but there are things within TSD that I have learned, & kept. The kicking body mechanics are phenomenal, & there are certain techniques within Kata like Pyung Ahn Sam Dan, & Kung San Kong that are absolutely awsome that might end up saving your but on the street. Within most Shuri Te based styles everyone claims that Naihanchi is the most importnat kata, I have been looking for stuff within it, trying to research all possible sources of info; Motobu from everything I have read was a brawler, & the only Kata that he practiced was Naihanchi, from what I have read. So I invested in the video footage of his son demonstrating Naihanchi, & it's bunkai. I really didnt see anything great in it, but thats just me. I think there are much better techniques in P3, & KSK then Naihanchi, IMO. So to me those are the most important Hyung within TSD. Some people train Kyushojutsu, & Tuite, I too have thought about doing so, & think it is some very interesting stuff. However, I really do think that it would be very hard to pinpoint speciffic vital point to strike in a fight. To me if you hit somone hard enough, everywhere is a vital point. But, you know what, just like anything else if you study something long enough it will come to you in the time of need. You might be in a fight then all of a sudden you hit somone in a speccific vital point, & their arm goes numb, because you trained it, & reacted. But, not to knock somone that trains this stuff, I think it would be very hard to do on a consistant basis, so it's not something that I would concentrate all my effort on, & travel across the country/globe to learn it. I do think stuff like this takes years for it to work, & if you are gonna study it, that it is something that you need to study vigorously, otherwise it might not be there when you need it. Going twice a week wont cut it, you would need to train this stuff w/ a partner pretty much everyday to make it work in my opinion. Sometimes I might not have the time, so it's not something I would concentrate on. I would much rather try to develop my body mechanics, timing, etc better then to try to worry about striking somewhere speciffic on their body, because if I hit them hard enough, you know what, their going down. So let me stop ranting, & let you guys express your feelings on these thoughts.

David

Re: Traditional but realistic

That is my feeling with the pressure point fighting concept as well....there's no doubt that it works....against a static, non-resistive opponent. But, I have never seen anyone effectively apply a pressure point technique in a dynamic situation.

As far as bunkai, while I find the practice interesting, we really have no idea in most cases what the actual original intent of the forms creator was, and we end up simply reverse-engineering the form....finding techniques to fit the movements of the form, which, in my mind, seems to defeat the purpose....why not just train these techniques?

For me, it's about time really....I have a limited amount of time to train, and I think that I should focus my training on that which I derive the greatest amount of benefit and enjoyment, and that's what I do.


Here is what I primarily train in now:

I would say that my primary "style" of training is in Brazilian Jiu-jitsu. I also cross train in no-gi submission grappling, kickboxing, and MMA. I also do some limited training with some Judo guys and wrestlers. Although I don't really practice Tang Soo Do as actively anymore, I do think that the kicking techniques found in TSD are an awesome compliment to my training, although I don't really work too many jumping kicks anymore.

JP

Re: Traditional but realistic

JP,

I thought you were the president of the ITSDA, How is it that you don't train TSD much anymore? No-Gi submission? Are you running around in Spandex? :0

I saw one another thread about you being a cop, my brother also is, I have been helping him out with the non striking compliance, very good info on what subjects do when trying to avoid cuffs and going for the gun, fighting off, police and other stuff you guys deal with. he will be the bad guy and do what has happened and I come up with ideas, then we work it till we find something thats is easy and works, is that about how you do it? any tips?

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Re: Traditional but realistic

Yes, I am the current President of the ITSDA....this is more of a political position than anything else and basicly has more to do with ensuring that the organization is run according to its Constitutional principles....I still keep up with my TSD guys and still occasionally train in a traditional TSD class or environment, but the majority of my training time right now is devoted to BJJ and MMA stuff....

Yes, I am an officer, and I also teach defensive tactics for our police academy here...we are starting to incorporate a lot more grappling type techniques into training than in the past, but of course are still limited by what techniques that the state will approve (at least for new recruits)...and it's been my experience that most people who set the state curriculum don't have a clue. The most frustrating thing is that the state and our department has not approved the use of any type of choke or vascular restraint, which I still contend is the safest, easiest, and most effective way of controlling someone...but that's just my opinion.

Re: Re: Re: Traditional but realistic

Jon,

I was reading on another forum some comments you were making, & it seems as though we think very similar to some degree, atleast. I've been toying around w/ the idea of when I start teaching again, that the only time somone should bow is when they enter the Dojo, & at the begining of Kata. I'm really not into titles, I think most know that, I prefer to use the title most important to me the one two people who loved me very much bestowed upon me, David, my name. Instead of bowing to eachother, give eachother a handshake/hug. Circle up, instead of linning up. There's a system, I think it's called Yoseikan Budo, it's now divided into two groups though, one of the groups use for everyone, even for the head of the system will use the same belt, a white & blue paneled belt. I think this, or something similar would be an awesome idea, as well. But, in order to do so, I'd have to be free from organizational constraints. No required yes sir, no sir stuff. I believe this might be either an American thing, or perhaps a Korean addition, not sure. But, it is not done in Okinawa. They just either say Hai (yes), or iiee (no). Sometimes, they would add Sensei to it, depending on who you are talking to. But, you know what, Sensei is a title used by Doctors, lawyers, etc, as well. I've been told that the word means one who has gone before you, but, havent really looked into the Kanji yet, I think I will though. My whole thing is, no matter what you do, you should be sincere about it. I think most people think bowing is a form of worship, & not a greeting, & some "schools" teach this way, as if they as instructors, should be worshiped. I think this is wrong! That is the same reason why I dont like the required yes sir, no sir. I think alot of the time, it is just lip service, & not sincere. If somone sincerly says yes sir to me, I do not mind it, but do not feel it should be required, if they would say yeah man, & it's sincere what does it matter? On the other board somone brought up the 10 articles of faith, & 8 key concepts; and in most, if not all Okinawan/Japanese Dojo, they have the Dojo Kun in place. Alot of time I think this is just words to people, they actually dont live it. I think that is a big problem, this part of the martial arts, is overlooked sometimes. They have become just words to most, & think it's a shame, because if we would actually look at what they say, & take them in, it's some good stuff. These are just some random thoughts I just been thinking about; and would like to hear what you guys think?

David

Re: Traditional but realistic

Yes I believe CT is the same with chokes, unfortunate, the rear naked choke(to name one) is very effective against agressors even pcp addicts have to breath. The problem is the amount of force to complete the choke and the duration of the choke, I think if you hold it until the eyes flutter you can get the cuffs on while they are still semi conscious, but many in a high adrenaline state may apply the choke too long and hard, that is the worry I think.

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Re: Traditional but realistic

Yeah, the problem is a training issue really....they are afraid of the very real danger associated with damaging someone's trachea during an air choke...however, most of the most effective, including the RNC are blood chokes, and work by cutting off the blood supply, rather than restricting the air. In fact, the RNC doesn't really even touch the throat area when done correctly, and is very effective.

JP

Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditional but realistic

Yeah, training in BJJ and being around a lot of guys that train in MMA has definately caused me to revisit my thinking on many of traditional "rituals" and ettiquette. Now, some BJJ schools are more formal, and follow a more Judo like routine...but, it's been my experience that most, and mine is one, are very informal....there's no bowing; before rolling we usually just shake hands, everyone is on a first name basis, including the instructor-no titles. It's not really necessary. Everyone knows their place and respects their seniors based upon their abilities. There is no need for a false imposed respect. Often, there is music playing during roll time. People wear whatever type or color of gi they want (as long as it is a jiu-jitsu gi). We always circle up rather than lining up. Everyone feels free to speak up and ask questions freely. I enjoy this type of training environment. It's very relaxed, although the training sessions are still quite intense. Takes a little getting used to, if you come from a traditional background like me, but I think if fosters a good learning environment.

JP

Re: Traditional but realistic

Blood choke vs Airway is definately a experience and technique issue, you can end up with a wrist across the trach in stead of getting the proper position across the arteries very easy when grappling as I'm sure you know, but taking away this tool from you guys is a bigger mistake IMO, you can't strike, you can't choke, pretty please doesn't work,so you have to pig pile them(no pun intended) what do they want? LOL
b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditional but realistic

You wrote: Takes a little getting used to, if you come from a traditional background like me, but I think if fosters a good learning environment.

My reply: I too have come from a very traditional background. However, I have always had issues w/ imposing on people a false sense of respect. Sometimes people do so, out of fear. I've trained w/ both Koreans, & Okinawans. I'm not saying that all Koreans do it, but the one's I've trained w/ it do, they demand respect from you, requiring you to say yes sir, but do not do the same in return, some will say yeah. Some wont return a bow. It was weird, when I 1st went to Okinawa, when I met my instructor, I bowed, he stuck out his hand to shake mine instead. I was wondering why he did it at 1st, but then got to thinking about it, maybe he is just doing so, because he is showing me my way of greeting, & I am showing him his, so I think it was out of respect. I also noticed, that when he greeted another instructor that they shook hands, as well. There might of been a slight bow, but not anything really noticable. Even within the Dojo, they werent going around bowing to people like crazy, as seen here in the US. I'm wondering if bowing is becoming obsolete? My instructor is a very nice man, & has treated me very well, very kind, & gentle, caring person. Everytime I have a question, he answers it, except if there's a language barrier. He does speak some english, but, not yet completely fluent, & I only speak maybe about 100 words of japanese, so there is a language barrier. But, this is one thing I want to ask him about, when I return again later this year. Another topic I wish to discuss w/ him is on another subject I will post under Shin, Gi, Tai. I'd like you're guy's thoughts on this, as well.

David

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditional but realistic

A lot of these so-called "traditions" are actually fairly recent implementations into martial arts, and, as you pointed out, are often more prevalent in the U.S. then in the art's country of origin.....kind of funny, since it is THEIR tradition and culture. Why should we adopt the culture of someone else in this country, rather than making the art our own and adding in our own cultural heritage. The one that really gets me is when people want to bow to a picture....that is ridiculous!! Don't get me wrong....I'm not going to disrespect anyone's dojo/dojang. When in their house, I follow their rules and proceedures....there are just some that I find kind of silly.

JP

Re: Re: Traditional but realistic

Yeah, and that is exactly the situation in which officers AND suspects get hurt....personally, if it was me, I would much rather be choked out than OC sprayed, hit with a flashlight or baton, or tased...

JP

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditional but realistic

Thats one thing I do not have a problem w/ doing, & that is the one thing done still in Okinawa, is bowing to a picture of our founders. The reason being, it is not a bow of worship, it is a bow of both respect, & thanks for giving us what we love so dearly. I think this is something else that is misunderstood.
However, bowing/saluting a foreign flag is something I do have issue with. I think this might of been something instituted by the Japanese, & carried over by the Koreans. As in Okinawa, I've been to a few Dojo, & none of them had a flag there.
While, I hope this might of changed the way you understand, bowing to a picture of our arts founder is a bow of thanks, & respect, not out of worship; If you still feel the same way, I respect that, & hope you respect, & understand the way I think, as well.

David

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditional but realistic

Well, no, it didn't change my opinion, but hey....to each his own....I certainly respect your right to do whatever you feel is best....and, like I said, I go with the flow. If I'm visiting someone else's dojang, I do things their way. If I have a serious problem with the way that they do something, I'll probably point it out in private afterwards, or simply not come back.

JP

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditional but realistic

Thanks for not getting defensive. This is what it's all about to me, communicating, learning, & sharing! Just out of curiosity, can you explain why you feel the way you do? If you feel that it is a bow out of worship, I respect that; & probablly should respect any other feelings you have about it. Please note, that I am not trying to start an argument here, I would just like to understand why you feel the way you do? So we both can understand eachother. If I have had a student that didnt wanna bow to a picture though, I would hope he wouldnt quit, just because of that fact.

David

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditional but realistic

Well, there are a couple of reasons....first, like I said, I'm beginning to think that the whole idea of adopting someone else's cultural tradition of bowing in general is just not really all that appropriate for our culture. I understand the sentiment, and where it comes from, and I don't have that major of an issue with it. I just think that there are better ways of paying our respect that are more common to our cultural heritage.

As far as the picture thing, I know that this is common in many Asian cultures, and it does have a sort of religious connotation to it, like it or not. It is based upon a sort of ancestor worship that is common among several Asian religious practices. That is where the practice has its roots. I personally don't believe that religion has any place in martial arts--unless you are doing it like a religious program, for example many of the "Christian karate" schools that are taught at churches, etc. or where all the members all subscribe to that particular belief and want to incoporate their religious ideals into their practice. That, I have no particular problem with, as long as they are up front about it (by the way, I personally wouldn't want to participate in a program like that, but that's just me). Besides that, I just think that the whole idea of bowing to a picture is kind of silly anyways. I could understand bowing to the actual person maybe, but an inanimate object? The picture doesn't care if you bow to it or not....like I said, to each their own. If I go to a school to visit and that is their protocol, I'll go along with it....I'm not going to rock the boat about a relatively minor issue, especially when I am a guest in someone elses house.

I think that, in general, some of these schools spend WAY too much time on bowing and other ritual...time which could be used to train. Also, it seems kind of forced and insincere....you can tell when the respect is truly there.

JP

Re: Traditional but realistic

Your point is made clear as of last night, while training with my LEO brother, we were doing scenario training with full contact , he with a bat, I being the Leo for the first pass, I rushed the swing and went for a one arm choke while kicking out from behind the weight supporting knee from behind, if you can picture my spinning inside the strike and wrapping the neck from behind for the choke while kicking the supporting leg out front behind, and corkscrewing down in the choke, going for a full naked(legs wrapped spreading his at the knees), I had to let him slip it because he tried to do a reverse spin and would have snaped his own neck, bu I released and we had a chuckle, then went back to see what he could have done to make a safer control.
Also with a step inside control wrists reverse, striking the attacker with his own weapon with a pivot, we hit my shins . his shins, missed and took a shot, very enlightening and bruising. LOL

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Re: Traditional but realistic

I've been LE for 15 years...both in correctional environs and on the street for 10 years. In all that time, I've only had ONE technique that has worked 100% of the time.

The Vacular Restraint (AKA...the Choke Hold)

JH

Re: Traditional but realistic

No argument here, just unfortunate most police forces will not "allow" you to use it. I know most cops will anyway, but the "not allowed" gets the force off the hook in case something happens

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditional but realistic

I think somehow, the posts here got mixed up w/ the posts on the other topic.
But, unto the reply to your statements. I understand, & respect your feelings completely. But, I know, I personally am bowing out of giving thanks, & respect for the person who created my art. Not out of some type of ancestor worship. I only bow down to one god out of worship, & I think he was born about 2006 yrs ago. I would never tell somone that what we are doing is out of worship, it is a form of greeting, out of thanks, & respect.
Like I think I mentioned in an earlier post, instead of bowing to eachother, why not give eachother a handshake/hug, like done here in the US? But, if this is a tradition I would adopt in my own Dojo, how would I go about teaching them about bowing, if I had my own instructors come to teach a seminar, or something? Maybe have a "traditional" class once a month, so they know what is expected? Any ideas?

David

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Well, there are a couple of reasons....first, like I said, I'm beginning to think that the whole idea of adopting someone else's cultural tradition of bowing in general is just not really all that appropriate for our culture. I understand the sentiment, and where it comes from, and I don't have that major of an issue with it. I just think that there are better ways of paying our respect that are more common to our cultural heritage.

As far as the picture thing, I know that this is common in many Asian cultures, and it does have a sort of religious connotation to it, like it or not. It is based upon a sort of ancestor worship that is common among several Asian religious practices. That is where the practice has its roots. I personally don't believe that religion has any place in martial arts--unless you are doing it like a religious program, for example many of the "Christian karate" schools that are taught at churches, etc. or where all the members all subscribe to that particular belief and want to incoporate their religious ideals into their practice. That, I have no particular problem with, as long as they are up front about it (by the way, I personally wouldn't want to participate in a program like that, but that's just me). Besides that, I just think that the whole idea of bowing to a picture is kind of silly anyways. I could understand bowing to the actual person maybe, but an inanimate object? The picture doesn't care if you bow to it or not....like I said, to each their own. If I go to a school to visit and that is their protocol, I'll go along with it....I'm not going to rock the boat about a relatively minor issue, especially when I am a guest in someone elses house.

I think that, in general, some of these schools spend WAY too much time on bowing and other ritual...time which could be used to train. Also, it seems kind of forced and insincere....you can tell when the respect is truly there.

JP

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditional but realistic

I would approach it like "when in Rome, do as the Romans"....explain to your students the tradition and philosophy of bowing, and that if they go to another school where this is the norm that they would be expected to go by their protocols. Also, explain the reasons behind why you do it differently in your school....and, as far as others coming into your school to train, I would expect of them that they respect you and your school enough to follow your YOUR protocols when a guest in your school. But, I would mention it to them ahead of time, so they are not caught off guard.

JP

Re: Traditional but realistic

As coincidence would have it, we were practicing chokes in Hapkido the other night, and were comparing the airway choke to the blood choke, by trying to go from seated to standing while in the choke. **** painful either way, but you can get up and start to fight off an airway choke while I found once the blod choke was started, it was too late to fight.

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do