Does anyone know bunkai for Passai So? Seems not many schools even do this form - only Passai Dae.

i just recently tested for my Yuk Dan in the TSD MGK.

Passai Sho was one of my testing Hyungs.........

I orginally leared Passai Sho as a Cho Dan in the MDK

Martial Art Style TSD MGK

From the history of itosu sensei, itosu created the lesser bassai, Bassai sho removing the bunkai and pressure points to teach it on the academic level. Bassai sho meaning to penetrate a small fortress! The lesser Bassai was created as a defense against the bo. Itosu Sensei felt with more modern times and the introduction of kara -te to school age children the bunkai and pressure points should be removed.

Hope this helps!


MD

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Passai So does not mean 'penetrate a small fortress'. The Dae and So suffixes attached to form names have nothing to do with the name of the forms themselves but are simply another way of numbering which is first and which is second.

JH

it could be taken that way,
Dae was the first....however meaning greater, large. Sho was the second bassai, however the name sho translates to lesser or small.

It was Itosu who gave it the name to penetrait a small forest

some refrences

http://www.angelfire.com/fl/shindoryu/bbkata.html

In section titled Kata

http://www.angelfire.com/fl/shindoryu/bbkata.html

MD

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Correction translation of sho and dae under kata found in this link

http://www.yamatanidojo.com/karate_terminology.htm
MD

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

That is consistent with what the instructors have been teaching here which originally came from C.S. Kim and the ITF. But it's not the name that we hadn't learned from him, it's the applications.

I am not sure of the history of Bassai So, however when I was taught the form I was told what each individual technique was designed to do (not knowing the history and I am in no way implying what has previously been said is in anyway incorrect-this could be a case of meaning added after the fact).

The version of Bassai So I was taught is also slightly different I have found from many other versions in existence. Bassai Dae or Teh was shown to me by the same Master who taught me So and his version of Bassai Dae was practically identical to the Bassai Dae taught to me by my instructor, given a couple of minor modifications in the execution of some techniques. In any event, if you would like I can send you a video clip of the form (to see if it is even similiar to your Bassai So) and the meaning Master Gunnell under Master Myung imparted into each of the techniques and the comments Master Myung made about the techniques (that I remember...he made me write everything down in a notebook, years later I am glad he did) while reviewing my progress if you think that will be of any help let me know. Again, I will be repeating what I was told (and remember and wrote down) and you will have to make up your mind whether it makes sense to your or not, based on mechanics and where the vital points are located on the body, but I will be happy to share if you are in turn willing to give me your opinion in return after reviewing the information.

Jamie

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Hi Jamie,

Could you post your notes on the bunkai here? or copy me in too??
it would be a great thread, and one that I think we could all benefit from.

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Sure,

Though it would go better with a video clip of sorts. Also that book I sent you written by Master Myung, Bassai So directions in the book are different than what he physically taught me (or had Master Gunnell teach me), so I assume there is an error on some of the turning directions in the text or I am just reading it wrong (seeing the exercise machines I put together the latter is always a distinct possibility), I just know if I follow the directions in his book I am ending up facing a different direction than the direction I face when I perform it the way I was taught in person. It is a great book, but at times I think some pictures were incorrectly placed and perhaps some typos in the directions. I will draft it up this Sunday review my notes and post the explanation I was given for as many of the moves as I can either remember the explanation for or have in my notes. It is really cool and there are a lot of breaking of the arms in the form. After I post if you or anyone else has some alternate explanations or some for moves to which I lack an explanation it would be fantastic if they too could be shared.

Jamie

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

To clarify I was given an explanation for all the moves, just some of them I personally do not like or I feel in my heart there is another better explanation or more to it. I will try to note those as well. Sometimes I think he tired of me asking questions, and would respond if I may paraphrase, "...just striking, do the striking don't ask so many questions. You do it X number of times right then you can ask more questions." Sometimes I felt as if I had a quota of the number of questions I could ask in a day and get an answer for :) But, when he answered them I was always enlightened :) and his student Master Gunnell always was kind enough to help me out, even though I was a product of another Tang Soo Do system and instructor. Both are great people.

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Hi Jamie and guest,
What I feel was meant by Itosu Sensei when he stated he removed the bunkai was that he removed the (and I believe I have this somewhere) Dangerouse pressure point applications when he created the lesser Bassai, Bassai Sho.

Bunkai or applications are just that applications and many Interpetations. We can look at a movement and come up with various uses for the movement, I've heard them all! song soo makee two fisted block....I was told your reinforcing your block for instance if someone was swinging a chair at you...lol I knew there was more to it then that. Or the mountain block Was discribed to me once as your blocking a chain...I asked a lot of questions and never got the answeres I was seeking.

The origional classic kata held and still do great bunkai and pressure point applications. Patrick Mcarthy SP has some very good work out there on this subject. example the mountain block in a sip soo, one application would be from a two handed grab open spred your fingers apart rotate the palms facing each other to the narrow portion of the wrist and reverse the hold, bring both arms up high, raise the knee and step over in front and behind partners front leg turning your body to now face the opposite direction taking your partner backward with a throw.

But it can go much deeper into pressure point strikes to the meridans. this I believe is what was meant when Itosu removed the bunkai to create Bassai sho. below the navel where we have soft tissue it is believed this is where our chi / ki is stored....this energy flows throughout the body carried by vessels known as meridans. strikes to certain points along this pathway can cause a blockage or disryupt the flo of positive ki/ chi. Lung meridan heart meridan ect ect. I wont go into great detail but this is my belief by what was intended by creating the lesser bassai by Itosu.

Hope this helps

MD

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

This is the information that was on the link provided by MD.
Bassai Sho, Ni, San & Tomarai Bassai

Bassai means to "Penetrate a Fortress". Bassai sho was developed by Anko Itosu and based on the original "Dai" version; however the "SHO" version deals with an attacker wielding a Bo (staff). Bassai Sho can be translated to mean "To Penetrate a Small Fortress". Bassai Ni was also developed by Itosu and essentially follows the same principles of power although it displays them in a much more offensive way. Bassai San was created by Kiyoshi Uehara and though it too pays tribute to the original it is its own form. Bassai San includes various spinning parries and grappling moves...a very nice advanced kata. Tomari Bassai is likely the original version of the kata. It is very similar to the "Dai" version practiced in most schools with one exception...the hands are open in a palm up spearhand (nukite). Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu practices this kata and calls it simply by its Okinawan name. "Passai. Tomari can be translated to mean "Thunder" and therefore Tomari Bassai would mean "To Penetrate a Thunder Fortress".

I have Bassai Sho on tape being performed by several masters and grandmasters from Japanese, Okinawan and Korean systems. As with all forms, they are performed differently; based on the perception of the grandmaster that passed it down in the given system.

Bill R.,
If you want to know the Bunkai for this hyung, contact me and I will assist you…


Your in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil

TANG SOO!!!

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Master Penfil,

Greetings! I was under the impression that Tomari was a village in Okinawa, and Tomari Bassai was "Bassai from Tomari Village".

Best regards,

John Luiza

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Hi John,
You are correct. The information that I included came from the web site that Dave Zacker posted.

I have Tomari bassai on tape, and would be happy to share it with you if you like.

Send me your mailing info...


Your in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil

TANG SOO!!!

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Yall got some funny translations for things. I think you are all reading tooooo much in the use of Dae and So and I defy you to find a reliable source that can be authenticated for translating it as Penetrating a Small or Large Fortress. This is myth. Just because someone translated it that way once doesn't mean it is the intended meaning of the words nor the intended message. You are simply planting trees to try to block your view of the forrest.

JH

Master Penfil and Bernard,

It has been real busy for me as I am in the process of editing about 6 hours of tournament footage :P

Good and bad news is that my Sunday night event was cancelled as Butterbean's opponent was in a car crash and without the headliner Fox's execs pulled the plug.

Rather than just post on the board, I will do my write up and send to Bernard because he requested it and if it is ok send to Master Penfil as well for comments, and interpretations if you would honor me so, I would rather give you the definitions I recieved when I was taught the form and then hear your interpretation, I am curios to see if they are similar. I can call for discussion when it is convinient, and sorry about not getting back to you Saturday, (I still want to get you down here to the Natural State for a seminar), but was competing all day and then my phone died (It does that when it gets into a gym and can't get a signal)!! Thanks for the long conversation Friday and my condolences on your loss. It has been a rough year thus far for the Martial Arts community, we have lost many of our honored elders this year.

Jamie

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Bernard,

In between video editing and doing an After Action Review on the event I attended on Saturday I sent you the first few moves of the form. Email me and let me know if you got them, I had some problems with mail tonight. I also CCd Master Penfil as I would like his comments if he will give them. Part of the bad about being given an interpretation especially one that makes sense it gets hard to think outside of the box and see other interpretations and for my own curiousity I am dying to hear Master Penfil's take on it if he will give it as I have a lot of respect for the knowledge he has demonstrated time and time again in our conversations.

Jamie

Back to Video editing...argghhh my camera guy worked hard, but the camera gave him a lot of trouble and getting this computer to clean it up without pixalating too bad is going to keep me up all night!

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

I recieved it in the mal this morning, I will check it out tonight, Thanks!

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

I too was told all those years ago Bassai meant "penetrating the fortress" when I learned it under my instructor Duke Tirschel. I was told that So and Teh or Sho and Dae only meant shorter or longer in this context.

On that note, Master Myung referred to it in his book and in person as the short or lesser Cobra Form, and the long or greater Cobra Form. Why this is so I do not know and have never heard it called this anyplace else, it may just be a nickname he personally gave it for all I know. Anyone else here hear this name referenced?

Also, I was not told anything about defending from a staff in any explanation I was given, sorry can't help there. But, I would like to hear how the moves defend against a Staff if anyone in the know would care to share it with me. In forms, I have discovered that not one meaning fits everything and the more I get the more it helps to view the forms and sort it out. Further, I have been told and shown how a single move we practice over and over again, can do a great many things if applied correctly. A block can be a block, or a strike, an arm bar, a finishing move, a pressure point strike and so forth, all plausible and effective...sometimes the hint as to what it is doing is either connecting the move prior or immediatly after. Anyway, I was not given that the form was used to defend against a staff and would love to hear this explanation of the techniques. Then take them apart and play with them in a self-defense type situation. That is one of my greatest joy to take techniques from a form and find out how to apply them successfully in different ways, it is like turning on a light and going AHA!

Thanks,

Jamie

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

I seem to remember that TSDMDK Vol 1 had a illustration of a Cobra or snake next to the name of the form, and it was originally called Pal Chee, and was the "collection of the best and fastest"? this could be where the snake comes in, because its fast?
I'm not at my computer so don't have my notes, I know JH can give a better def. if he's about??

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

At our do jang we do both bassai so and bassai dae. The animal representation is a cobra or serpent with bassai so being a lesser serpent and bassai dae being a greater serpent. Historical name was pal chee which translates to "collection of finest techniques". The meaning is breaking into a fortress.

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

I think that, by and large, the "animal representations" in regards to the classical MDK hyung canon are down-right silly, to be honest.
As for Passai (Pal Che) So, well, we do practice and study that hyung in our dojang. Mr. Bill R., if you'd like to visit us in April (April 29th we are having a tournament, and there will be a testing that weekend, too), then I'd be glad to share some applications from that hyung with you.

Bill R.
Are you Bill Richards?


Yours in Tang Soo Do,

Master Jay S. Penfil

TANG SOO!!!

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

I am, as well, inclined to view the animal apellations as "silly", however it can help with the "psychology" of the form, i.e. how the koreans originally felt about the form and how they performed it....


In terms of applications, I beleive the crescent kicks at the end were originally lower and with the double hand strikes can be interpreted as major outside reaps.

Best,

John

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Bassai...aka...Bal Sae (korean) meaning "remove obsticle" Literally. In Japan, the characters were sometimes used in reference to a fortress wall...and thus took on the meaning "penetrate fortress". A meaning not universally associated with the character set.

Pal Che....simply another pronunciation of the characters and a play on words in Korean. Meaning "best choice" or "select quickly". Actually...I think these use other characters but are pronounced Pal Che as well. Go to Warrior Scholar and ask Ondrej for a translation. You may actually find it already listed on that site if you do a search.

The form has not association with snakes, cobras or serpents. It is most likely a form of crane fist learned by Matsumura during one of his jaunts to China. The whole snake thing...and the other animals the Koreans attached to the forms...is a purposeful affectation by them to render them more "Korean" and less "Japanese". The Korean Animal labels are misleading and should not be regarded as indicative of the true origin of the forms.

The Dae version was the original created by Bushi Matsumura Sokon while the So version was created by his disciple, Itosu Yasutsune. The addition of Dae and So to the form names was done to designate them and identifiy them. They have no meaning to the form of one being 'Larger' or 'Smaller' as most versions contain virtually the same number of movements. When you see a form called 'Dae' it is usually indicative that it is the original or the form that came before the other.

JH

Origianlly...there were not crescent kicks. Those were front kicks.

JH

Thank you JH, I can always depend on you giving a great post on forms history.

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do