We all know that you are to respect your seniors in class and also your opponent in sparring...but what do you do, when you are a senior and there in one student who just doesn't seem to respect you? Like in sparring doesnt acknowledge a clear point and even starts a discussion about "you didnt hit me" and seems to have an attitude? This person is older then you but has been training not even half as long as you have....when you try to put the student in it's place nicely (a few words during sparring) it doesnt seem to help...you think there is some jelousy or whatsoever what makes this student personally dislike you. you dont want to bother the teacher with this.. or should you? ofcourse you dont want to make the situation worse then it already is...

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

First time posting here -- Mr. Redfield, this is a nice board you've got going here -- well done!

Interesting problem, and while I'm a fairly new student I can relate.

In my eyes, the student's role is to offer appropriate respect at all times, not to enforce the proper behavior of other students. I think it is the instructor's role to guide and enforce appropriate respect and discliplne in the dojang.

Now, if your instructor is too busy or is distracted and does not see the lack of respect, I think it's perfectly appropriate for you to request the opportunity to speak with him -- privately -- about the problem and ask for guidance on how to address this lack of respect. I'd bet cash that your instructor will assure you that this will no longer be a problem, and will take special efforts to ensure this student show the proper respect in the future.

In my opinion, lack of appropriate respect for fellow students (both senior and junior, I'd say) undermines the environment of the dojang for everyone, and I'm certain your instructor would want to nip this issue in the bud ASAP.

Tang Soo!

Gregg

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Hello Gregg,
Welcome to the board, Hi Melanie,

Gregg has nailed it pretty well, If I were told I would be sure to mention how important it is to show proper respect , by making proper bow when you are scored on during sparring in class with your fellow students, then would keep an eye out and correct then if they needed reminding. Nothing to put them on the defensive just a general reminder , more if it continued. There is no need for a debate you either are scored on or not.If you are scored on then you must acknowledge it with the bow, or as we somimes do when we are really into it , a smile and nod, point to where you were hit, touch gloves and keep going.

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

I can remember the first martial arts class I ever joined had a student in it that was like that. I was so new I didn't know the 'clicks' that had been established. Anyway, they had a fellow there that was just as you described and treated me with the same contemptuous behavior. At the time, I wasn't aware of it, but he had been treating several others the same way (as they later confessed to me).

How did I handle it?

Well....


....I knocked him out!

That sort of solved the problem for both of us.




JH

You can't demand respect or even really expect it in life , because not everyone is going to offer it .

As to respect in martial arts , well an instructor can only teach so many people and if he has delegated you with the responsibility of teaching and you are not a qualified instructor or master in the arts ( based on your question ) then honestly neither you nor your instructor can expect much respect . You see , some people take martial arts with no concept of what to expect and are willing to do what ever you tell them , you can even teach them wrong and they will both learn and swear by it . On the other hand , some people take martial arts with the idea that they will learn how to fight . The problem here is that most martial arts schools are so watered down that they are in reality almost useless in real world situations . For example , the guy that digs ditches armed with a shovel has an advantage in a fight against most martial artist .

Truth, well you are still on that Martial Artists can't fight, and a guy in a ditch swinging a shovel his whole life yada yada yada, track. That was not the topic though it is always your topic and a tired one too.

Melanie has asked, what to do about a disrespectful junior, She never said she is an instructor with this problem, it is a color belt to color belt problem with one a lower rank not showing proper dojang ettiquette. Well as JH says she can certainly pound the person into a more respectful tone, or as Gregg has pointed out, explain to her instructor what is happening. If you have a constructive alternative not already on the table that has nothing to do with carpenters. or shovels or a poor blue collar man with a hunger, please let's hear it.

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Thank you very much for your opinions.
The problem is that the respect usually seems to work when an instructor is around....the student seems to think that, when noone is watching, it is okay to be disrespectful to others....so the knowledge of what is right and what is wrong must be...and as far as the invloved parties can see, the disrespectfulness/attitude is only towards certain seniors, not all of them.....
i feel it would be so silly to bother the teacher with this as we are talking about grown-ups who should be able to solve their owns conflicts...

Hi Melanie,

Well, if you don't want to "bother" your instructor, then you could always go with Master Hancock's suggestion -- I tend to be more diplomatic in how I approach things, but that's not to say that mine is the only way to handle the situation. Master Hancock's approach would probably achieve the results you desire, but it's just not my way.

However, consider this: you say this student "behaves" when your instructor is watching, and yet not when he is away, and also picks and chooses who he feels he "should" respect. Is this not disrespectful of your instructor, and of the entire dojang, as well? Yes, you could pound this jerk and he'd probably respect you (at least until he thinks he can get a cheap shot or two in, or when you're not around), but what of the other students he fails to show respect for, and of his general attitude of disrespect to the dojang at large?

IMHO, if the instructor is unaware of this, he should be made aware, regardless of how you choose to handle the situation -- this student is doing far more than simply disrespecting you: he is disrespecting the inntructor and the entire dojang with this behavior, and should be made an example of. But I'd let the instructor do the pounding, personally -- he deserves the opportuity to demonstrate to the entire student body what value he places on appropriate respect and discipline.

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

If the instructor is not present then it appears no one is in charge and so what is the lesson being taught ? Who is teaching , no one ?

So young students are left in a situation to learn for themselves , well there is a lot to learn from ones mistakes but if your instructor does not point this out then again I ask "where is the instruction" and if the instruction is this poor then there is no respect earned or deserved .

My point , time to find a better school

truth, what are you trying to do here? you dont know my school. you dont know my instructor, you have never trained there so why do you think you are qualified to tell me to find a better school?

when you have 5 different groups sparring, is the instructor supposed to be at 5 different places at the same to time ?

are you an instructor? are you teaching in your own school?

truth, also, we are not talking about young students.

Melanie,
I have several comment to make that will hopefully help you with this situation. Here we go…

In 30 years of teaching I have learned that you can’t judge a book by its cover, and everyone enters the dojang for different reasons, and has different reasons for being there to train.

In 1986 Grandmaster Kim had a student in his school that had some issues. He was in his early 20’s, a red belt, 6’2”, about 175lbs. When he would spar with the juniors he was always going after them as if he had some kind of vengeance in his mind. I would usually cut in and deal with him by giving him the same kind of treatment that he was dealing to the juniors. He would get the message, and use better control for the remainder of the evening, but the next class would always be the same.

One evening I finally asked him; what is your problem? You act as if you sit in traffic all day long, p i s s e d off at the world and come here to take it out on everyone else. He responded with; we actually sir, I am a truck driver, and I do sit in traffic all day long getting p i s s e d off at everyone. When I come here it gives ma a chance to vent.

I realized that the only way that I could ever fix this situation was to sit him down and through discussion, change his mind-set. I did, and it worked out great. He became a great teacher, and I never saw him abuse anyone again,

This guy that is causing you problems is under the impression that he can mistreat you, and others as long as the instructor is not watching. This is a different problem then the one that I had with Grandmaster Kim’s student. This guy knows right from wrong, and has demonstrated this by selecting the times when your instructor isn’t watching to act out of line. This needs to be brought to the instructor's attention right away. If he is allowed to continue, someone may be injured as a result of his recklessness.

If you discuss this with your instructor on a private basis, your instructor can keep an eye on him and catch him in the process of offending you (or others).

In the dojang the senior Sam Dan is generally the sergeant of arms; make him aware of the situation as well. The more eyes that are focused on the subject, the quicker he will be caught in the act, and dealt with accordingly.

Please keep us informed as to how this situation plays out…



Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil

TANG SOO!!!

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Melanie

Perception . yours . the junior student , and the instructors .... Master Penfil is correct and his answer to you is most appropriate .

Is your instructor supposed to be in 5 places at once ... Yes . It is his responsibility not to spread himself too thin and then again perhaps he already sees the situation however if he does not then it is something for you to think about .

As to what am I doing , obviously I am not familar with any one here and I only have a few sentences to go on so I offer an opposing opinion .

I will also offer you my apologies

Truth,

You tend to jump to some seriously erroneous conclusions on this board.

Do you assume that students are never in situations at all without their instructor? ever ?

No one ever said they were taking a class without an instructor, nor did they ever say that a colored belt was teaching a class.

From this one statement you are declaring melanie's school to be a bad one ?

In a subject that is dealing with respect, your comments are quite ironic.

Martial Art Style TSD MGK , Hae Dong Gumdo

I must apologise to Truth. I had not read up to the ending of the posting.

Martial Art Style TSD MGK , Hae Dong Gumdo

Thank you very much for your reply Master Penfil. I think I will talk to another Dan in the class about this.

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do