It is not a kick I am on it is reality . The mental conditioning and physical conditioning of the working class is more suitable to surviving in a real fight or even in a war then a well fed person who has been pampered and protected his whole life .

Now what has this got to do with the art of self defense . Ancient peoples using sticks to defend against swords , rice flails as weapons , etc. In essence the tools of their trade as weapons and this is true today . Weather a butcher with his knives , a pumber with a 3 foot pipe wrench , a carpenter with a screw driver and a straight claw hammer , a roofer with a balanced est-wing hatchet and on and on . These tools are used hours a day , day after day for years and become extensions of their hands and in a confrontation these are most likely the kind of people you will encounter on the streets . And so , a ditch digger with a shovel vs. a martial artist with a bo .... I'm betting on the guy with the shovel .

Now , as in the past , when you train the guy with the shovel in martial arts you have a formidable fighter .

Bernard , no disrespect intended , just a point .

interestingly awaiting your comments

I would take the martial artist with a staff, a worker with swing shovel has no pyung (balance and control)

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

I see the point you are making, but I think that the trained MA with the bo will win a fight with your ditch digger, but if they were to go elbow to elbow in a trench the skilled worker would win hands down in any digging endurance, the blisters alone would stop some one unused to real physical labor, same thing for any other skilled laborer, they would win say in a continuous hammering contest, or a jackhammer contest, but a MA will win a fight, because that is the skill they have trained for. Now what about the ditch digging martial artist, hmmm

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

truth, i have been reading so many posts from you on this board that give me the impression that you find training MA useless.

I am starting to wonder who you are,what you train, how long you have trained and most importantly WHY do you train?

I was wondering the same thing about truth. Nothing he posts is positive.

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Melanie

I am glad you read my posts so as you should recall in a post I made in regards to you I said that I studied a martial art found in Vietnam under a man named Trang , similar to gung fu , one of many arts that I have studied and that I began over 40 years ago , I also mentioned that I teach and spend a fair amount of time doing so in some rather rough places .
As to why I study and teach is somewhat regrettable but honestly survival , or at least for many years it was . Early in life I knew many people that were maimed , raped . stabbed , shot , murdered even dismembered and every combination of the fore mentioned . The regrettable part is that for these people to defend themselves , sometimes they too must take life . I spent many years contemplating this as well . And , after 40 years I find myself more the student then ever , redefining the way .
As to martial arts , I most definitely do not find them useless , but I do see the commercialization of the arts as a bad thing . Also , I may not be as negative as I am serious .

Knowledge .... Balance , I would like to see more instructors emphasize balance in their schools .

Now as to control and what about focus , as it applies in life it will benefit you in martial arts .

How many hours does a martial artist actually spend with a bo compared to the thousands of hours a laborer spends with a shovel . Do you not see an advantage ? The point here is that the martial artist must condition himself , he must train rigorously to achieve that level and then his knowledge will serve him the advantage .

I encourage everyone here to visit www.24fightingchickens.com for many reasons. I can't find the article I am thinking about, but there are some arguments on there that are well thought out and along similar lines to "truth"s.

I think this argument boils down to is all things being equal, physical strength and conditioning is a major component of a fight (look at Matt Hughes and Rich Franklin's UFC fight training). We wear white pjs to learn how to fight... However if you look at DVDs, at local dojos, etc... How many beer bellied "masters" do you see? Out of shape brown belts? We aren't, quotoing Napoleon Dynamite, "...training to be cage fighters". We've found a self defense art that we love and choose to continue to train in.

Also, the quote here, is "self defense". Point sparring and full contact sparring are not self defense but skilled practitioner vs. practitioner. The angry pick axe guy, or the drunk punk/thug at the bar taking a cheap shot are. Most people aren't thinking, I hope this guy is not a black belt. That is why some of our people train in everyday clothing, train with full body armor in scenarios.

Thankfully for me, I'm 6'7" 220lbs and "no body bothers me"

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Before anyone could really answer this wouldnt we have to agree what the "average" martial artist is ?

What is their age? How fit are they? Sex? What rank are they? What skill level and how hard have they trained?

Who is the ditch digger ? Is he a huge 6'10' man or a 5'6" woman ?

If all things are equal wouldnt the marital artist have an advantage in that they are traing to fight, while the ditch digger is training to dig ?
Or is it the assumption that this "average" martial artist is not really all that well trained?

If I am the average martial artist and the ditch digger is my opposite, I'm all set, he is going to throw his back out when he swings with the shovel anyway.

I beleive you are right though that a person who has had to work hard doing physical labor starting in martial arts is definately going to have an advantage over someone who has had a sedentary life.

The same could be said for the most part for age. Younger people are, in general, in better shape for such a strenous activity then us older people, at least on the physical side.

None of this really seems to matter though. It's not as if I should quit simply because others have an advantage over me. It means I have to train hard to overcome it.

Martial Art Style TSD MGK , Hae Dong Gumdo

I dont often post here anymore, but, I have to agree w/ the truth, because that is what he is, the truth! I really dont see him as being negative, as he is just being realistic. I think, our friend, the truth, has seen many things, in life, like myself, that has changed our way of thinking. You see, just like the truth is talking about, I have been shot at, I have had an ex-girfriend try to stab me, I have seen people being cut up w/ a beer bottle, I can go on, & on. This type of exposure to such violence will inevidabley (sp?) change your way of thinking. Take the test, look at some of these videos, and honestly ask yourself, do you think you can survive such an attack? Are you honestly prepared? If you go into a fight, are you prepared to perhaps die? These might sound like Ironic questions, but, if you answered no to any of those questions, you need to change the way you think, because if not, you might be setting yourself up for a failure. Go ahead, take the test:
http://www.nothingtoxic.com/uploads/7f343cbd35bb9adb6dc89bc057619c4a.wmv
http://www.youtube.com/w/KIMBO?v=zEB78WSF7vM&feature=Random&page=1&t=t&f=b
http://www.comegetyousome.com/video/suckerpuncha.wmv
http://www.comegetyousome.com/video/ass_whooping.wmv
http://bluemondy.castpost.com/05122201.wmv
http://66.232.99.242/videos/yikers_great_street_fight.wmv
http://y.wimp.com/file/2dde1261c804c0e0bd417c8050951049/43ffb9b0/v/crazyfight.wmv
http://media.putfile.com/street-fight--black-kid-vs-1
http://www.fightvids.net/content/streetko.mov
http://70.86.221.58/videos-4/050905-street-fight-video.wmv

David Somers
www.angelfire.com/fl5/okinawagojuryu
www.okinawagojuryu.org

So sir, your saying the average "Ditch Digger" is prepared to die and the average "Martial Artist" is not?

Definately, exposure to violence does change you. Someone who is exposed to violence as a daily activity definately has an advantage.

How do you train someone to deal with such a situation. I know while I was in the service that muscle memory was stressed. Being able to take apart your weapons in the dark without thinking. Drilling with your rifle on misfires. Hand to hand training with and without a partner. Bayonet training with and without a partner, again and again. Why?

So that your body will react without thinking. If your taking fire and you have to think about how to unjam your weapon, well that sucks.

If someone throughs a punch at you and you have to think about it, it's going to more then likely hit you.

If your point is that many schools don't train hard enough then I dont think you would get too much of an argument. I've heard about the belt factories and the romper room karate schools. Thankfully, I dont belong to one of those. It doesn't seem most of the people here do either.

If you beleive that there should be more "realistic" training, that is all well and good. If you mean full contact drills, well that is great for people that are interested in it. In point sparring I manage to get enough bruises, a broken hand, fractures of my fingers and toes. I dont need worse injuries myself.

What do you feel needs to change?

Martial Art Style TSD MGK , Hae Dong Gumdo

This reasoning is absolutely correct! The logic is infallible. Proof follows:

Peasant - hard working field hand, becomes strong from constant work on the farm, or while fishing and this strength translates into the ability to fight, duel and with his/her bare hands kill any martial artist or trained warrior who is foolish enough to bother them.

Samurai - Pampered, poetic calligrapher, flower arranging, weakling who spends the rest of his time swinging a sword around (shooting his bow and arrow), wasting time practicing the martial arts, for history proves he was rendered powerless by the simplest of fishing spears, pitchforks and so forth, living in constant fear of his better the hardworking blue collar peasant who might take his life at any moment for forgetting to bow or show proper courtesy to his betters the blue collar peasant.

This is how it actually works? What fools we have been, even history has lied to us.

Little did I know, when Karl Marx meets Musashi the result is the Warrior Worker who needs only hammer a couple of 1,000 nails or so to become an elite fighting force.

@truth
thanks your for sharing your backround!

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Jack,

I think a start would be, if you are not exposed to violence, as depicted in these videos, I reccomend taking a look at them, & searching other ones too. Because this is very real. Hopefully, it will change your mindset, & get you to think. That is the most important thing to do, is think. Like, I said in my earlier post, if you cant honestly answer yes to any of those questions, you might be setting yourself up for a failure. In most Dojo/Dojang, the self defense is very stagnant. In other words, I grab your wrist, I stand there, & let you defend against somone grabbing your wrist, while I dont move. Think about what I just said. What is wrong w/ that statement? How can that be changed? Why do we keep on passing on bull to our students, that is supposed to be self defense, but it's not? I'm sure I'm gonna hear stuff like, well in a traditional school, we do this, we do that, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla. Well, guess what, I'm a traditionalist, who just so happens to think realistic, because of the enviroment I grew up around. I dont wanna get more into it at this point in time, because I want people to think for themselves, because in the end, the answers will come from within. I cant provide the answers of the test for you, only you know, so just be honest w/ yourselves, and make changes, that would change your answers to those questions.

Melanie,

You are a really nice person, but I am afraid Truth has not shared his background. What he has done instead is continue to post anonymously while portraying himself as someone with expert knowledge and experience. Unless he is willing to support his vast knowledge with a name and history, places he teaches that can be independently verified, he is like me another random internet poster who can anonymously claim anything and everything and never have to offer more than a vague story or allegory to support anything he wishes to say. A first or second year college student can express the danger of relying on a an allegory to prove a point as opposed to some type of hard fact.

Like me he can post anything he chooses or represent himself as anything he chooses (though the admin of the board I am sure can identify me through computer magic).

Without this, I for one cannot take Truth very seriously, when he attacks some place like Tompkins, I can walk into a Tompkins school and talk to them and see for myself what they are about(they are very open and polite people), but I can never analyze the thrower of the stone, because he hides (in all his bravery) behind a keyboard tearing people and systems down (most of which he seems to have no first hand experience with), obviously this type of bravery need not be born of the hard streets.

This post is really not to Melanie, it is really in response to Truth (but it is a literary technique used to make a point). Truth, don't dodge her question while trying to stand from the pulpit of an expert pertending to have answered it, if you are truly proud of yourself and confident in your background and that it will pass inspection tell us who you are. Then I pretty much gurantee if you are a true martial artist of 40 years who knows about the martial arts we can find out about you (it is such a small community), verify your background and gain a whole new respect for you. If you are simply an outsider looking in we can respect that too, but you will pardon some of us if due to your lack of experience if this be the case we do not take you too seriously. I find we don't take each other that seriously anyway.

I challenge you to really give your background. Tell us who you are, where you have trained, where you teach, references, and the like. If you check out, maybe some of us will follow your enlightened path.

Mr. Somers,

I agree with you, to a point.

It is stupid to feel that if all you do is mediocre one step sparring you will be able to handle yourself in all self defense situations. I think part of the problem though lies in the student themselves. If a student doesn't take their training seriously, especially children, they will struggle. There are nights when I just go through the motions, when I should be concentrating on what it really is I am doing.

I think the one steps are useful in building a programmed response to an attack. Yes, obviously your attacker is not going to just stand there with his punch out in a front stance. Though, wouldn't that be nice. It's still programming a response into you. Responding to an attack is much better then not responding.

Many people that have not experianced such violence will often stand there, stunned by it all. Since most people have not been attacked giving them a programmed response, I think, is a good thing. Until we grow to the point where more is needed.

I was attacked when I was around 18, the first time someone really wanted to hurt me. I was stunned by it all. If I had been alone, I probably would have been severly injured if not killed. That kind of a reaction, of just standing there, is hard to get out of people. I can remeber vividly to this day though it happened over 22 years or so ago.

I've noticed a difference when doing the hand techniques also. The higher ranks really apply preasure and force you to move them and break free from them, as opposed to how it was done when I was a lower belt. Perhaps that is because we all have more confidence we won't really hurt each other.

Martial Art Style TSD MGK , Hae Dong Gumdo

I checked out your videos Mr. Somers. They were pretty hard to watch.

The only two that concerned me were the one with the two large gentlemen, bareknuckle boxing. I would of had to prey, go for a knee, and run.

The other one that brought up a question in my mind, was the one outside the store, where the man punches the person in the car. What do you do ?

First, I would have just moved my dam car and gone somewhere else myself. But if it did happend, I think I would have tried to trap the arm, go for an elbow, hell bite him.

If you can grab his arm at his full extension and trap it, maybe you can put a wrist lock on it, he would be pretty weak.

What do you do if someone attacks you while you are sitting in the drivers seat of your car? I'm going to have to ask my instructors.

Martial Art Style TSD MGK , Hae Dong Gumdo

Even if Truth turns out to be a 14yr old pimply faced geek, he has brought some good posts to the table, and he seems to have struck a nerve with some. His negativity is more frustration at the lack of quality found in many studios than actually negative posts

I believe I see the picture truth is painting, his blue collar worker is the archtypical physically robust work force specimen, while the Martial Artist is an office worker, who is a pampered dilitante who trains at a Mc Dojang twice a week, if he can fit it in with tennis or golf.Unfortunately some people who take up MA do fit into that box. Naturally these types that have joined because they want more of a spiritual , mental, aerobic workout will not do well in the scenario put forth in the movies sent in by Dave S. nor would they be in a situation such as the ones potrayed.

If you look at the movies in that list most of the attackers, (besides being scumbags), threw the first shot and continued to deliver punishment, they did not hesitate or lose focus on the goal of winning. neither did they show any great skill, in each case if it was not an out right suckershot then beating, it was a mismatch. So what the movies show and what everyone who has been in the type of situation shown knows is, the one who lands the first shot and follows thru usually will win. Total comitment,don't hesitate, dominate, ground then pound, think later fight now.

I will stick to my traditional MA and practice my hand grabs and onesteps, they do have great value, take them for what they are, exersizes, to familierize yourself with the mechanics of the body, the problem is many MA students never go beyond the basic wrote of the exercizes and really learn how to move and see what the exersizes are the opening to.

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Yeah, their very brutal, but real. Two times I have had similar situations happen, believe me, it was no fun. One time, I was in my late teens, an ex friend of mine had a lil' sister at the time was about 15, I think I was 17. He didnt like the fact that I was trying to get w/ his sister, & didnt know it. One day, me, his sister, & two other friends went out somewhere, when I brought her back home, he come walking towards the car, so I rolled down the window to say hello, he comes charging up to the car. He had my door pinned w/ his body, had my seatbelt on, & couldnt move. Thank God, my friends were there, they jumped out of the car to stop him, if not I dont know what would of happened. The 2nd time, me, & two friends went out to a club, we were all a bit intoxicated. One of them picked up a girl, & was in the back seat directlly behind me, w/ her. We were talking about something, & I guess we got into it about something, & he just punches me in the back of the head. I told him not to do it again, if he does, I'd hurt him. But, what did he do? Yep, he punched me. So I reached back, & backfisted him right in his temple, as hard as I could, considering I was in the front seat, strapped in. He just started punching me, like a mad man, from behind. All I could do was just grab him by his throat, choke him, & hold him back, while I sank down to try not to get hit, into the seat. The girl jumped on top of him, to try to settle him down. By the end of the night, the girl, I think wanted to go home w/ me instead, she really didnt wanna go home w/ him, because she realized what a jerk he was, but, I wasnt about to get back into it w/ him, over some girl. But, she kept trying to kiss me, & asking me if I'm ok. The next time I seen her at the club, she pulled me out to the floor, to dance w/ me, lol. But, the thing is, when you are in situations like this, you never know what you're gonna do, untill it happens. You can say, I'd do this, I'd do that all day long, but, in all honesty, no one can really say what would happen, or what they would do, because we just react. Please let us know what your instructor says, I know I'd be interested. He might say, he never thought about it. if he does, hopefully it will get him to thinking, & change his thought patterns. I have a situation for you, not that it ever happened to me, but, what would you do, if you were sitting on the toilet, in a public stall, & somone reached under the stall, & tried yanking you off the toilet, to try to mug you? What are some other odd situations you can think of? While we cant predict what we would do, it is good to think about them, because you never know, it just might happen.

David

Well it isn't pretty, but, you trap the guys arm and take off, get up to around 50mph and let go.

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Enlightened , I like that .

Who and whatever I am I will guarantee you that I am neither a liar nor a charlatan . I gave considerable thought to your post and would really like to hear what you think makes your school standout as a martial arts institution so I started a post on the subject . Perhaps you would even like to train with me sometime and judge for your self .

I thought about this sir.
While, in my eyes, this seems like a fair response to an unprovoked attack. I wonder what the law would look on it as.

I forgot to ask my instructors about this last night. I was worn out after class.

Martial Art Style TSD MGK , Hae Dong Gumdo

What do I feel needs to change?

....for one....point sparring....not at all realistic, and useless as a means to learning how to fight in a realistic scenario. It's ok for sport, but it's basically a game of tag, and bears little resemblance to reality.

I would argue that the "average" martial artist is not someone who is seriously training to fight....

There are exceptions, but the MAJORITY of martial arts being taught in this country are being taught for sport, exercise, character development, etc. and do not stress as their primary emphasis, fighting skill.


By the way, the "average" martial artist is a 7 year old training in a Mcdojo somewhere......just based upon the numbers.

JP

"Peasant - hard working field hand, becomes strong from constant work on the farm, or while fishing and this strength translates into the ability to fight, duel and with his/her bare hands kill any martial artist or trained warrior who is foolish enough to bother them.

Samurai - Pampered, poetic calligrapher, flower arranging, weakling who spends the rest of his time swinging a sword around (shooting his bow and arrow), wasting time practicing the martial arts, for history proves he was rendered powerless by the simplest of fishing spears, pitchforks and so forth, living in constant fear of his better the hardworking blue collar peasant who might take his life at any moment for forgetting to bow or show proper courtesy to his betters the blue collar peasant."

Englightend? No...not really. Because your diatrabe about historical figures is completely wrong on every point. What you described was the EXCEPTION and not the RULE. The reverse is the factual truth. The AVERAGE Samurai could kill the AVERAGE and even ABOVE AVERAGE Peasant warrior with speed, efficiency and little effort. That IS the historical facts proven over and over again. The many 'Kobudo' tales you hear are the EXTREME exception and not the rule at all. THey were told to give Okinawan students confidence and to bolster revolutionary followings. Check out the true history. No revolutions occured. Few if ever survived such encounters with actual trained, sword welding Samurai.

If you are going to give historical examples, be 'enlightended' enough to do your research first.