Obviously this is the ugly sister post to what makes a good school .


What is it that you don't like about martial arts schools and why as well as whether your perspective is that of a student or an instructor ?

While my experience with martial arts schools and training is pretty limited, I can tell you as an adult student some of the things I ran into in some schools that kept me from commiting to training for so long:

1. MA instructors who think they're the drill sergeant from Full Metal Jacket. Screaming and brow-beating is not the same thing an motivation. If the only way an instructor can find to motivate a student is through abuse then I doubt very much that the student is capable of maintaining the self-discipline over time to excel and learn anyhow. Worse, I've found that instructors (or managers, supervisors, all manner of bosses -- this is hardly limited to MA training) of this type often seem to have few other motivating techniques at their disposal and try to use the same style with students that *are* self-disciplined and self-motivated. Nothing I can think of could be less effective.

2. MA schools that are clearly focused on the "up-sell" from day one. I understand that school owners have a business to run, but I didn't walk into the school to buy MA items: I came to learn martial arts. If I need to buy gear along the way, I will buy it at the appropriate time. Don't try to hard-sell me on gear, patches, special memberships, t-shirts, club stickers, weapons, and pads right away so that if I lose interest you still will have made a solid profit off of me anyhow. Perhaps instructors that do this should consider that many students lose interest *because* they realize the instructor sees them as a revenue stream, not a teaching opportunity.

3. To a lesser extent, schools that are too "kitschy" or gimmicky turn me off. If the place has tons of "oriental" decor or looks like a converted Chinese retaurant I tend to suspect the overall seriousness of the staff.

4. Schools that are *too* child-oriented. This one is tricky, because obviously teaching very young children martial arts can be both beneficial for the kids AND profitable for a school -- and if the school isn't making cash it won't be around very long to provide for my own training. And of course martial arts training for kids is incredibly beneficial (both of mine are treaining at the same school I attend) and the vast majority of students are comfortably in the below 18 range so a youth-oriented program is almost a given at nearly any school. But at the same time, if the school seems to put too much focus on providing a "martial arts playgroup" and doesn't place emphasis on the mental aspects of MA training with kids then I'd question their commitment to developing their young-adult and adult students.

Like Mr, Redfiels mentioned in another thread, I've experienced *none* of these traits in the TSDMGK organizations/instructors I've encountered. Tang Soo Do Academy in Cedar Park, TX has been one of the best thigns to happen to me in *years.*

Gregg

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Perspective....both

I don't like the commercialization of the Mcdojos that exist only for the sole purpose of enhancing the wealth of the owner at the expense of the student. I have no problem with people making a legitimate living, but there are a lot of con-artists who either intentionally, or through their own ignorance, are offering their students an inferior product at an exhorbitantly overpriced rate. Quality takes a back seat to quantity (and sometimes isn't even in the car!!)

JP

What I dislike the most is how everyone puts down everyone else. If it is not exactly like my school – it must be substandard.

There is nothing at all wrong with “kid dominant” schools. I must admit I love teaching kids more than adults – if I had all kids it wouldn’t bother me in the least. Half my kids are 7-16 and half over 16 – I like the balance but some people don’t like training with kids – so that just put me down saying oh that is just a “family style” school. Phoooey on them.

We have a school in town here that might seem like the Drill sergeant approach you mentioned but he produces great martial artist and his people love him but I would not spend 1 day in the school. I have a couple of his students because it wasn’t for them but I called him and spoke with him before accepting his students out my respect for his program – and I do not let anyone put his program down. My town is more than big enough for the both of us.

Yes there are “up-sell” schools and that in and of itself is not wrong – here in Pittsburgh the CS Kim is considered by those who are jealous to be like that, but they also produce great Martial Artists. Kim charges $95 a month, testing fees, t-shirts, sparring gear, books, video tapes, retail uniform fees, patches, 2 tournaments a year… and you don’t own your trophy – they must be given to the school owner for display. But CS Kim produces great Martial Artists and he sent two of his kids to medical school.

Personally I like the schools that get into the Oriental motif but maybe that is because we train in gymnasium and we can’t have much of that – what is wrong trying to create an atmosphere – I think it shows me something special about the owner.

McDojo’s – do not be surprised if most of your competitors think your school is one. It’s not fast food – its great food fast, by the way hahahah. Remember Gregg, I can bet I can quickly find you lots of people who do not think much of your organization – and you have the premier TSD leaders in the USA, but he certainly has his critics.

So what do I dislike – I dislike people who think like you. But you see I could be wrong, you might be a great guy, but I am only looking from the outside. Nothing personal – I am just trying to make a point.

Tang Soo,
Dave

Martial Art Style TSD

Hi Dave, great post, I agree with you on everything, I like the kids, we have some great ones, but I do also like the adults especially the ones who like to train hard. As for the oriental motifs, as lomng as it does not look like Shaw Brothers movie set, no problems, haha

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Hi Dave (I'm sorry -- I gather you are an instructor, but I'm new here and I don't know your name or what I should be calling you -- no disrespect meant. Please let me know your name so I can address you properly in the future),

Oooookay -- clearly I may have miscommunicated, because I don't think my opinions (and that's all they were, opinions) warranted such a stern rebuke. I wrote a fairly off-the-cuff post, not thinking anyone would take it very seriously coming from someone with so little experience. Clearly I was wrong. Let me see if I can regroup and clarify a bit.

"Truth" asked "What is it that you don't like about martial arts schools." I answered with a list of the things I've encountered that I didn't like. This is a purely "personal opinion" topic, and I was just offering my own opinions. As I said, "my experience with martial arts schools and training is pretty limited, [but] I can tell you as an adult student some of the things I ran into in some schools that kept me from commiting to training for so long."

I never have claimed to be an authority on what makes a martial arts school good (or bad) -- I was only expressing opinions on what makes a school good or bad for me. I only began thinking about training in martial arts a couple of years ago (I'm 38 now) and the points I listed were some of the things I encountered that made me hold off on commiting to train for as long as I did. Some of the things I mentioned were serious "red flags" for me (the Drill Sergeant thing, which is something that would turn me right around and send me out the door on any school, regardless of the intructor's reputation) and some less so (the Oriental Motif thing is just a personal preference because I feel like it's gimmicky and kind of distracting -- obviously if a school had a great rep and the instructor was terrific then the decor is not even remotely important) that led me to make the choices I made when selecting a school. I thought I was clear on that, but clearly I was not.

Re: Child-oriented schools, this is something I should have elaborated on, since I in no way intended to imply that a school is necessarily bad if it is child-focused. I love kids, have two of my own, and had the great pleasure of testing with an 8 year old and an 11 year old on Saturday. They were fantastic, and I loved practicing with them the night before our test as much as I love attending family class with my kids and training together.

Depending on your definition of "child focused" nearly all martial arts school are probably more or less child-oriented, at least in terms of student population -- especially if you consider teenagers to be children. This is certainly the case at our school. This is not a bad thing, and I didn't mean to imply it was.

What I have run into, though, (again, AS AN ADULT looking for a good fit, training-wise) is

a) a number of local schools that have a fairly bad reputation for undertraining and lowering the requirements for their young students so as not to hurt their feelings and

b) plenty of young-child (meaning, let's say 10 and younger or so) oriented schools that are essentially after-school daycare and which -- regardless of the quality of their training programs -- do not appear to have much in the way of an established adult program.

For example my brother and sister in law recently began TKD training at the school where their children attend after school karate. The adult program is very limited, offers little flexibility in class schedules for the adults, and there are no advanced adult students to train with or emulate -- the only non-white belts the the instructor and his assistant. This would not have been a good program for me.

Re: McDojo's -- well, that wasn't my phrase, but I get you. There's nothing wrong with a business owner trying to make a good living. What *I* object to the "Hard Sell from Day One" approach that some schools employ to get you to commit lots of funds early on, before you're had a chance to really explore the program and your own commitment and ability.

While I am sure it's possible for these schools to turn out great martial artists, I'm not going to apologize for expecting an instructor to treat me and my family as more than a revenue stream. I attend my school to learn, not to buy products. Now, as equipment becomes necessary I will always buy it from my school, even if I could get it for less elsewhere, because I am happy to support a school/business that doesn't treat me like little more than a walking pile of money (and that's good, because if that's all I am then it's not a very big pile ).

Finally, regarding the TSDMGK and my rah-rah-ing it, I only meant to second Mr. Redfield's similar comment in the "What Makes a Good School?" thread. I'm fairly certain I said nothing about it being the Best Organization In The World Ever And Everyone Else's Sucks or anything like that, just that it's been everything I was looking for so far. I'm certain opinions vary -- being opinions, they always do. For me, it's been a godsend.

Anyhow, I didn't mean to come off like the Voice of Judgment about schools -- I was just trying to contribute my opinions and experiences on the topic. Didn't expect a smack on the snout about it, but then again this is a martial arts forum -- I guess I should be ready to get popped in the nose from time to time. If you'd like to discuss this further, please feel free to contact me at my e-mail address. In the meantime, maybe I'll just keep quiet for a while.

Tang Soo,

Gregg

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

LOL, Greg, don't worry thats just how Dave talks, he didn't mean to put you on the defensive, you have an opinion you can post it, no big deal, I'm sure he will say the same, but he is usually busy and does not get to the computer as often as he would like, so don't be surprised if he does not reply right away.(thats why I did)

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Oh yea Gregg, almost forgot,

Everyone knows the MGK is the best, if they say otherwise it's because they are jealous that they can't learn the special secret handshake that only us members know.

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Hey Mr. Redfield,

Nah -- I know I can come off as a bit haughty and opinionated. Sometimes, I even mean it to be taken that way! . I write tech documents for a living, and sometimes I forget that I should just talk like myself online, and not like I'm explaining how to use a software product to a clueless newbie. Tone is everything! Even though I've been online for almost 20 years, I still tend to forget that sarcasm doesn't exactly translate well to online communications. I often fail to get across just how much smirking and eye-rollng I usually do when I'm babbling on....

Anyhow, just don't want to get off on the wrong foot with y'all. This is a cool forum -- serious talk without the annoying political posturing and crap that goes on in some of the other forums I browse. Don't want to risk wearing out my welcome by being perceived as a big ol' sphincter ....

Tang Soo!

Gregg

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Gregg - it was not personal, I trust I said that. I was playing off your post to drive home the point that my experience is that most tend to think our style, our dojang, our association is the Best. And since we all know that TSDMGK is really the Best - they rest of us are just going to have to learn to live with it.

Tang Soo,
Dave
www.cka.50megs.com

Hey Dave,

No worries -- just could see by your reaction I had obviously not really gotten my point across in the way I meant it and I wanted to clarify. As for TSDMGK being the best, I see no reason for you and Mr. Redfield to be smug: non-TSDMGK members will figure that out on their own in time, and we'll still be here, smirking.

Tang Soo!

Gregg

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

I am a senior student of Master C.S. Kim and want to set the record straight on a couple of items.

1). The tapes and books Master Kim produces are for the BENEFIT of the students.... How many of you on this board own these tapes or his book and are not students of his? Yes he makes money on them but his students are NOT required to buy them.

2). The only patch we are required to have is Master Kim's organization patch.

3). We are not REQUIRED to go to any tournament. The only one we are encouraged to go to is his All Martial Arts tournament every May (May 6th in Pgh this year - how is that for a shameless plug )

4). Trophies do not have to be given to the school owner. Years ago this was a tradition to show appreciation and respect for your instructors time and effort. And also to make your school and instructor look good I wont deny that. Today that is optional and I have seen some of my young students bring their trophies to Master Kim so that he can display them. He is genuinely very touched by these students display of respect and appreciation but he ALWAYS gives them their trophy back for them to take home and enjoy.

5). Isnt the goal of every parent to give their children an opportunity to be successful? Master Kim is no different.

SaBom32016 ,

If you would like, please start a new thread with info on your tournament in May down there in Pittsburgh PA, date, time, location, fee, divisons(sparring,weapons,breaking,forms etc)

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

"4). Trophies do not have to be given to the school owner. Years ago this was a tradition to show appreciation and respect for your instructors time and effort. And also to make your school and instructor look good I wont deny that. Today that is optional and I have seen some of my young students bring their trophies to Master Kim so that he can display them. He is genuinely very touched by these students display of respect and appreciation but he ALWAYS gives them their trophy back for them to take home and enjoy."

I also can imagine by now sir that he is running out of space to display them all.

Martial Art Style TSD MGK , Hae Dong Gumdo

Yes, most of the ones in there now are from the 70's and 80's.....looking at them is like a stroll down memory lane

Thank you all for reminding me how much I have to be greatful for. My instructor and I may have our differences, but I really respect the fact that he treats the fifteen year old with a fist full of crumpled bills from his first job as well as anybody with a salary to blow.

I am always sad to see people disparage the younger students. Yes, many of my seniors are half my age. But, those young men have been the most faithful when the school had rough times, and our instructor needed them to pitch in. There really isn't anyone except S.B. Mitchell that I trust more.

Martial Art Style TangSooDo

Would that be Sabomnim Penny Mitchell?

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Mr Doty said:

"my experience is that most tend to think our style, our dojang, our association is the Best."

It's funny, but this topic has been floating around in my mind ever since we discussed it a few weeks back. I agree -- most folks seem to have this sort of attitude about their dojang. I certainly think this way, no question. So I was kind of dwelling on *why* I feel a need to assure myself that my school and my instructor and my organization are The Best and I had a thought.

I wonder how much of the predisposition in many students to think of our own dojang or instructor or organization as "The Best" is essentially a necessity, a method to help carry us through the tough times, when training is tough or challenging or even overwhelming. Sort of a coping mechanism to keep focused on training even when it's hard.

Consider: Instructors and dojang owners have the fact that training is an aspect of their profession, or is their career, or is their calling, to help them to push forward through the physical and emotional and psychological demands of training. But as a student -- i.e. someone who can theoretically choose, at any time, to stop training without any larger ramifications aside from stopping training -- I think that sometimes you have to be able to tell yourself, and really *believe*, that you are exactly where you are supposed to be, that you've made the Absolutely Right Decision in training, regardless of how hard it can get and how many demands it can put on you.

So maybe a better way to look at the the whole "My Org. Kicks Ass!" attitude is to consider it as less arrogance than a necessary enthusiasm that can help carry a student forward when doubts start getting in the way. Doesn't mean it can't be annoying -- god knows I rattle on about my training way too much for my wife's tastes: She's got the eye-rolling down to a science .

Anyway, just a thought.

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Great idea Gregg! Infact, there are psychological studies which would confirm this! Members of a group who endure hardship to "belong" rate the group experience as more positive than when members are allowed to just "join". I would say the hard training is our payment of dues!

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Thanks for the reply and compliment, Mr. Plyler.

Yeah, my take on it is that, since the "my dojang is best" attitude is so prevalent -- and not solely restricted to the usual braggarts and blowhards -- that perhaps it serves a purpose beyond "WOOHOO! WE'RE #1!!!!" rah-rah-ing. After all, I doubt you'll many martial artists who have advanced significantly who do not feel that their success is at least somewhat due to a perceived unique excellence found in their training, instructors, etc. Perhaps that sense of pride and "specialness" about their own training environment/experience is the fuel that helps sustain them through the toughest parts of their training. Seen in that light, it's not so much a flaw or character as it is a necessity!

I imagine that as one advances and finds greater levels of self-confidence and maturity in the arts that it should become easier to acknowledge that other styles/disciplines/training approaches/organziations are equally beneficial. But when you're an 8th gup who's hamstrings haven't stopped aching for a month and who regularly deals with self-doubt while struggling to master techniques that others seem to be able to perform effortlessly (sigh...), having an internal voice that reassures me that there's no place I'd could possibly be that would be better for me can be vital in getting myself back to the dojang 3-4 times each week.

So, I guess what I'm saying is that those who have progressed past the pettiness of "My Dojang is the Best!" attitudes might find these attitudes in newbies to be less a negative attitude and more a necessary resource for those who haven't matured in the arts. Of course, being proud of one's intructors, dojang, or organization shouldn't be considered license to slam or ridicule those of others -- that's whole other kettle of fish, there.

Tang Soo!

Gregg

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Whoops -- I mean, thanks for the reply, Mr. Luiza! Brain fart!

Gregg

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Yes, sir. Should I have written it out?

Martial Art Style TangSooDo