Redfield Martial Arts Message Board
A friend of mine who teaches jiu-jitsu told me about their tradition of requiring black belts to "get out of the house" - to cross-train in another martial art, and to visit other jiu-jitsu dojos to learn how things are done there. He asked if Tang Soo Do had any similar tradition. I've never heard of anything of the sort; have you? I had the impression that this was grudgingly tolerated, at best...
OTOH, Kwang Jang Nim Byrne has invited friends from other martial arts to come in and present to the ATA, and he's brought in some really great martial artists. My own instructor knows that I study American Jiu-Jitsu as well. Although some instructors would discourage a gup from doing this, my master is generally supportive as long as I put in the training time for TSD. I'm less committed to jiu-jitsu; it's really just something fun I do to blow off stress from Tang Soo Do. Theoretically, I'm learning valuable self-defense skills, but given that all of the people I'm really scared of are TSD masters, it's probably hopeless. ;-)
Martial Art Style TangSooDo
For the most part it is better to wait until after Dan to begin cross-training to keep fom getting technics confused with each other and get a solid foundation in one art before mixing styles. As for grudging acceptance that is different from instructor to instructor as well as from org. to org. So if your nstructor is good with it no problem, I like what one of my instructors said, If I find a technique I like and it works for me, it becomes part of my Tang Soo Do.
b
Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do
My background is extremely varied , just last week I was able to pick up about 90 or so instructional videos that I have yet to see albeit a lot of the material will be familiar I am sure I will gain much insight . I teach my children the same way , a combination of myself and another school and often 2 other schools . Interestingly , these other instructors are usually on par with me , having 30 to 40 years experience in various arts , so , even though they may be teaching taekwondo or hapkido , the bulk of the instruction (over 50%) is a blend of many other arts , the emphasis being on self defense , the ability to fight effectively . Interestingly as well is that many instructors recommend that a person get a good foundation in one discipline before moving on . Myself , I say learn all you can learn from as many places as you can , but then my goal has always been to be devastating as a fighter , to be able to seek and exploit weakness in any confrontation . For me to have accepted limitations would have denied me the ability that I possess .
Truth,
Fro myour posts I understand You are primarily a mixed martial artist, taking the bits of different arts that work for you and discarding the rest of the art. Being a devastating fighter is your goal.After 30-40yrs at this I'm sure you have reached the skill level you have sought. I also think you have found by now that many arts have more in common than not. The way may be different but the end result is generally the same, there are only so many ways to bend a joint or make the human body throw a kick or punch. My way, and the way of the members of this board is Tang Soo do, (I also train Hapkido & Judo), this is a board for Tang Soo Do practitioners, with a mix of young and older practitioners. While your posts have generally been interesting to some of us older guys, and I may agree with much of your opinions, I feel that you may be better served on one of the mixed martial art boards. I don't believe I have seen any post relating to Tang Soo Do practice or history. I have been informed by some of the parents that read the board that they will no longer allow their children to come here, mainly because of your posts,though some of the other people who have posted lately also have brought a darker feel to the board.I may in the future add a separate section for adults only, but until that happens, keep posts related to Tang Soo Do, History , or Technique.
As for your opinion about when to allow a student to learn other arts, I agree with you in respect to how you seem to be going about it, it sounds like you have a small group of like minded schools who are sharing knowledge and visiting each other regularly to train. I think the original poster was more along the lines of going to train at another traditional school and learning that system as well, so my opinion of that would be to wait till chodan before going to learn a entire alternate system.
b
Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do
I have to conceed that you are right about the confusing part. I probably wouldn't recommend this approach to anyone else; to a certain extent this is something I need to do to make the best of a difficult situation.
Although the two arts I study have a very different emphasis at the beginner level, they seem to overlap more as one advances. I am really curious which of the ideas I've liked from jiu-jitsu are also taught in various parts of the Tang Soo Do community at whatever level, if you don't mind my asking about that here. Or does TSD have other ideas about the same great questions that you might like to tell me about?
For instance, I've heard that long ago TSD practiced what we now call "self-defense" as part of the regular one steps. My TSD instructor has shown us a tiny bit of this, which has a flavor very similar to the American Jiu-Jitsu basic retaliations. The moves are a little different, but the goal is the same. Break the grip, then break the guy who grabbed you. The "soft" TSD techniques Grandmaster Stumpf demonstrated at camp also seem to place more emphasis on grabs and takedowns than the American Tang Soo Do techniques. I haven't seen enough of this to have much of an informed opinion, but most of you are better travelled than I. Does this remind you of anything you've seen?
American Jiu-Jitsu seems more introspective than Tang Soo Do. We're expected to spend a lot more time thinking, talking, and even writing about the ethics of using our art in real world situations. But, this may be a function of who my two instructors are, and the much higher percentage of adults in the AJJ class, rather than a difference between the arts. So, I'm curious to ask people who know more about Tang Soo Do than I do what they think.
Both of the schools I study at are very self-defense oriented. In the AJJ, it's obviously designed that way from the top down. In Tang Soo Do, in my very limited experience, the level of emphasis on self-defense seems to vary widely between the ATA masters. How self defense oriented is your Tang Soo Do?
I understand that I don't have enough training to develop a "fusion" style, in fact I'm decades shy of this. At best, I just have conditioned responses to a few more cues. But, a lot of the AJJ philosophy is general enough to apply to any martial art. When O'Sensai Puleio visited our dojo, most of what he said talked about focus and concentration: identify the primary goal of the move you are practicing, and don't let anything else distract you. Come to think of it, that applies to most of my life...
Martial Art Style TangSooDo
After Bernards response to me I am very interested in seeing him Field this question being that tsd is primarily a kicking art . As I mentioned when I first came here , I have seen tsd organizations promote students through the ranks with very limited self defense and jujitsu skills , no use of throws , sweeps or falls , no instruction in the following 1)proper breathing , 2) distance and closing 3) line of attack , etc basically the basics . Limited or no sparing and on and on , Basically the curriculum consist of basic punches and kicks , one step sparring , intermediate combination drills and forms without explanation . Now don't get me wrong , tsd is a fine art , but at the beginner / intermediate level , which is where the bulk of the practitioners are there is very little in depth instruction ,
Actually my so called take bits and discard the rest approach was defined after many years of extensive study in several styles albeit I have always been well traveled ie: where I seldom wear a gi or should I say exhibit any affiliation , some of my gi's resemble a suitcase that has been around the world . And , actually my memory allows me almost complete recall of the tools in my arsenal . What I have done though is reevaluated much of my training . As to my abilities , I have long been able to devastate an opponent of a single art however I continue to learn or more correctly experiment . As to a limited number of martial artists that train together sharing techniques , not quite , it is a rather large number of practitioners throughout the world that seek truth through the arts . Not much different then yourself training in multiple arts or attending seminars or inviting other instructors into your studios . We are just a little older then you . For example , look at arnis and Remmy Presas , prior to him the stick was alive and your hands were beaten black and blue during training .
As to the dark side of my approach , well , I have been very reserved . For example , "how to defend yourself when seated in a car " and your reply was to grab the person and drive . In the 70's a man pulled a gun on my brother , he grabbed him and hit the gas , 3 shots went through the seat between his legs and the rest through the floor board . The confrontation ended when he side swiped a steel dumpster . On another occasion a friend in the same situation grabbed the mans arm , the bullet entered below his left nipple and exited through his right nipple , the attack ended when he made a left turn and ran over the assailant .On another occasion a friend was found shot dead behind the wheel . All three within walking distance of the U.S. capitol . So how do you defend your self , especially a women ? Well , items you may have in a car , ink pen , screw driver , umbrella , all of which could be used to stab at the face of an attacker . Now let's limit it to tsd , well you need to know the striking points in the upper torso , neck and head . Now using tsd , let's make it simple , finger jab to the eye . most people will back up . Now this should appear under another post but I refrained , just as I have refrained from speaking of attacking nerves , organs , arteries etc. because it would be irresponsible as an instructor in this format .
How I came about your site was researching Tompkins Karate , it appears on your home page under tsd history . I had no idea that this site was geared towards children although it appears to be child friendly . Most schools have a website for their students but it is usually member oriented . As well . you are aware that your site is open to the world .
On limited to tsd ,,, A thought for you ,,, I am thinking of hiring a person so I offer my prospective employees a meal . One person picks up the salt shaker and adds some to his meal and then begins to eat . The second person tastes his meal first and then adds season as desired . I hire the second person . Understand why ?
More later but let me leave you with this .. We all seek truth yet it is not truth that enlightens you but the journey there .
Truth
"1)proper breathing , 2) distance and closing 3) line of attack , etc basically the basics . Limited or no sparing and on and on , Basically the curriculum consist of basic punches and kicks , one step sparring , intermediate combination drills and forms without explanation ."
In my limited time in TSD, as I have only reached 3rd GUP so far, all of these things you bring up are addressed quite often by the instructors whose classes I take.
Though sweeping is something that has been covered mostly as part of our Ho Sin Sool (spelling? 
), I've never done throws as part of my TSD. Though I have been shown where some of our techniques could easily turn into a throw.
Martial Art Style TSD MGK , Hae Dong Gumdo
Truth,
I say "bits & pieces" not as an insult but as my take on what you seem to do, not saying anything is wrong with it, and I would hope you didn't take it wrong. From my point of view you have studied many various arts, and taken the techniques that work and discarded the flotsom, or as I call them the foofie la la, techniques LOL by doing so, you over your 30-40yrs have amassed a considerable knowledge base that I don't expect I could add to, but thanks for saying I might, more likely I would be the one learning. I was kind of interested in the reply you were going to give"dragonlady" but I'll take a bash at it with my view of the question. As to my site being open to the world, I know it is and I like it that way, you have just as much right to post here as anyone, but I get to make the rules so to speak, so your reserve is appreciated.
b
Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do
Dragonlady,
I will try to answer your question but first a bit of background to get me into the right frame of mind.
At some point Martial Arts became very specialized and so students would move from master to master and learn what they could then bring that back to the master and share what they learned(much like what truth does). with the commercialization of Martial Arts schools what happened is that owners of schools now had to worry about retaining student and keeping enrollments up to pay for the expense if owning/running a school, so that probably started the hording of students and excluding them from training elsewhere for fear of loosing them and the school.With the internet and video tape /DVD etc that seems to have loosened up and we now see much more cross training.
The original creators of the standardized USTSDMDK HoSinSool were Master Yong Man Lee and Master Young Ki Hong, both of which were trained in Hapkido/Jujitsu/Judo so the similarities with the TSD joint locks and takedowns are easily explained. Now why do the hand grabs not show the full take down and finish as would be done in Hapkido/Jujitsu/ Aikido ? My opinion on that is that TSD being a stand up Striking Art related to Shotokan they wanted to keep it more stand up rather than a ground art, also most studios at the time were and still are hard floor and would not be conducive to takedowns.I know many studios did not even teach proper falling, so you would have had many injuries from student not falling correctly. Now of course you see matted Dojangs with added pull out matts for teaching proper falls/breakfalls/rolls.
Many Tang Soo Do schools in general will not teach the complete take down to Gup level students until green/red belt level and after they have learned to fall, and have grasped the basic techniques. This is different from the Jujitsu/Hapkido/Aikido way of teaching, they will start you right off being taken down and learning to take down teaching joint manipulation and pain compliance. Why? I think it could do with the age of the practitioners, many Karate schools have a much younger student base than Hapkido for example. eithewr way seems to work, by chodan each will have mastered the basics of the art they are in.
An example that comes to mind with the same technique with different emphasis is a simple cross hand grab, right grabbing right. in TSD it is common to grab the opponents wrist with your right and left hands step across with the left foot so you are shoulder to shoulder then as you raise your arms you shoot under clock wise to lock the opponents wrist, then generally it is a head butt very basic excersize most schools use to teach movement, the same technique in Jujitsu/Hapkido schools would be to have the right grab his right at the wrist over the p-points and at the elbow with the left hand at the p-points and instead of taking that big step with the left foot to go shoulder to shoulder, to take a short step toward the opponant the when you shoot under clockwise you will be almost next to them, then drop and pull. Almost the same technique with very different results. now could the difference be put in to make it safer for younger students to learn? hmmm
The differing emphasis on the techniques from one Tang Soo Do organization to another is inevitable, especially with regard to the ATA (American TSDA) and GM Stumpf(German TSDF), so the flavor will be different even if the basic movement is the same, such as where the foot positioning is or how you enter/close. remember also that GM Stumpf along with Tang Soo Do, is highly ranked in Jujitsu,Hapkido and Kempo, so he will have more emphasis on takedowns/grabs/locks than would someone with more of a stand up fighting background.
Hope this helps
b
Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do
I'm only beginning to learn how much Tang Soo Do varies from school to school and association to association. The TSD school I attend does quite a lot of sparring. My instructor is very diligent about teaching us to breathe properly, and explaining the purpose of the techniques in each form. That may vary from instructor to instructor, but I know that all ATA students are required to learn at least a few takedowns by red belt. Most of the grappling, throwing, and weapons defense I've learned through Tang Soo Do was at special events or review lessons my instructor gave after these events, rather than being part of the "official" ATA curriculm. But, it is there.
I haven't studied long enough to have an independent opinion on Grandmaster Stumpf's techniques, but I'm quite sure that Grandmaster Byrne told us that the material presented at (the ATA) camp last summer was originally Korean. (Well, originally is meant in a relative sense, given that the Tang came from China once upon a time.)
One thing that makes it harder to compare the martial arts is that Tang Soo Do (IMHE) has more of learn by doing emphasis. My TSD instructor doesn't talk to me about protecting my head as often as the American Jiu-Jitsu instructor does, but the TSD instructor spends more time on sparring, sparring drills, etc. where I actually have to protect my head from an unexpected strike. Looking at novice students in both arts, the TSD students seem to gain intuition for defending against unexpected strikes more quickly because they get hit when they're open.
Don't knock the kids; infant cuteness is one of the oldest self-defense techniques known to man. It's much harder for a grown-up to hit me in the nose. But, I see a great deal of sense in what Kyo Sah Redfield said about the choice of techniques in Tang Soo Do being affected by the age of the practitioners. The Dan Zan Ryu (Jiu-Jitsu) instructors I've talked to tell me that they have a completely separate local promotion program for kids. In either of the jiu-jitsu traditions I've been exposed to, students don't start studying for a nationally recognized black belt until their teens, and they have to be adults, or nearly so by the time they test. Whereas all Tang Soo Do students, in the ATA at least, are tested on the same material for their gup belts. Some of the most responsible black belts I know are in their early teens.
Martial Art Style TangSooDo
Tang Soo Do is what you make of it.
Don't let the Korean pronunciation box you in.
Go further, deeper, longer.
JH
Study martial arts and find your own path in life.
Probably TSD more than most of the mainline traditional styles require cross-training since Hwang Kee learned his Hyungs from a book (Karate Ju Jitsu). Hwang Kee even claims he invented Hyung IL Bo in 1947 (Volume 1) though we have published evidence of these forms from the 20’s and 30’s. He did know the meaning of the movements which is why I suspect we see so many TSD organizations perform the adopted forms so differently.
The reason most TSD organization had to add 1-step sparring is because they did not understand that all of those techniques were already in the Hyungs. These organization properly added this 1-steps to the curriculum because they saw their Art lacked this knowledge but it is just shame that someone didn’t tell them that were always there - they just didn’t know it.
I would suggest to all TSD Black Belt to seek out training from Japanese and Okinawan styles that know the historic bunkai of the TSD forms. I always recommend Master Jay Penfil (7th Dan TSD) from Detroit because he has studied these Arts and can relate the true meaning of the Hyung movements to TSD people in a way that they can understand and accept the truth.
For instance the first block in Pyung Ahn EE Dan – where is the hand position. I learned one way from my instructor, then was corrected by a Master in the same organization, then I learn a third position from another TSD organization. Guess what – they were all correct and wrong at the same time. Once you understand position of the block at contact through to the end of the block movement you can see that all 3 positions occur not just any one of them. I hope I wasn’t being too cryptic.
Hwang Kee also said in Volume 1, that if it works – it is TSD, so I have decided to stay in TSD and simply study the originals of Hyungs independently.
If you are looking for someone to hold a seminar – call Master Jay Penfil. We have had him for two weekends – he taught for more than 10 hours each weekend – yes 10 hours. His knowledge of TSD and the historic bunkai of the TSD Hyung is unparalleled in the USA. He is a tireless teacher and a great guy.
Tang Soo and God Bless,
Dave Doty
www.cka.50megs.com
Martial Art Style TSD
Tooo Funny, I don't know where to start on this one, but I swear I have answered all this before. Let me just pick a few choice bits this time.
"Probably TSD more than most of the mainline traditional styles require cross-training since Hwang Kee learned his Hyungs from a book (Karate Ju Jitsu). "
self serving, you infer GM Hwang Kee only learned from books. What about the Masters he gathered who trained in China/Okinawa/Japan? who helped form the MDK and helped standardize the system.
"The reason most TSD organization had to add 1-step sparring is because they did not understand that all of those techniques were already in the Hyungs. These organization properly added this 1-steps to the curriculum because they saw their Art lacked this knowledge but it is just shame that someone didn’t tell them that were always there - they just didn’t know it."
The one Steps were added to give beginning student an easily grasped set of two man offensive/defensive basic of movements to supliment training.
Do you really think the MDK Senior KoDanja needed to be told because they "just didn't know it"? the same people who added masters with Chinese/Okinawan/Japanese MA experience, just didn't know? how amazing ,( more likely it was that we wouldn't grasp the concepts in the forms)
"I would suggest to all TSD Black Belt to seek out training from Japanese and Okinawan styles that know the historic bunkai of the TSD forms."
From Japanese? you mean the guys the Okinawans hid the moves from in the first place? who told them the secrets in the forms? as I recall all japanese books also show low blocks with the little bitty wrist bones blocking big old leg bones. And who dug up these Okinawan masters and asked what was hidden? AAhhhh, So then it is all just supposition and conjecture.
Ahhh, now I feel better, oops look at the time, I gotta go teach
b
Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do
One of my friends father is the senior black belt of Kee Whang Kim (got it in the 40's in Korea) He has retired from teaching, but I would like to try & have him come do a seminar. He trained together with GM Hwang Kee, Kee Whang Kim, & Lee Wong Kuk. That would be a person I would love to pick his brain. He was there when they did Tae Guk Kwan & So Rim Jang Kwan (taught to HK by KWK) but of course, nobody would beleive it. His son's name is Sang (Peter) Paik in Madison, WI. If anyone gets a chance to talk to him, he if very open with information.
Master Pistella
That would be awesome, even if all he did was recount his experiences and talk about the relationships between Hwang Kee , Lee Won Kuk, Kee Wang Kim, and others and what he saw, I'd be there!
b
Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do
Kim Ki Whang had a little discussed history with the MDK and the Hwang family. Mr. Kim's family were involved in inport/exports and Mr. Kim actually was able to train in various systems in Taiwan and elsewhere. Many of the more esoteric forms that ended up in the ancillary group of forms in the MDK actually came via Mr. Kim. Mr. Kim's membership in the MDK is something of an egnima. It appears that while he was held in an honored place, this appointment was more due to family ties than to earn ranking in the Kwan heirarchy. The problem with trying to pin down the MDK curriculum is that is and always has been rather fluid and subject to modification and change periodically.
However, I do recall when it was fully disclosed that Hwang Kee based the majority of the base curriculum upon his study of books. It was a bit anticlimatic following on the heels of the massive propoganda that he had trained for 20 years in China and had 'brought all forms back from China'. None of which was factual. Unfortunately, such hyperbole is common to the Asian cultures and examples of such embellishments and outright fabrications can be found in many, many systems of all nations. Thus...the reality is....Tang Soo Do IS what you make....and style is a result of one's OWN study and practice more than any other factor. This makes Hwang Kee's knowledge and the MDK's reputation no less authentic or valid than any Keun in China, or Kan in Japan, or any Ryu in Okinawa. Thus....the 'American' Kwans that have come into existence in the past 20 years are also no less authentic and valid.
JH
Thus....the 'American' Kwans that have come into existence in the past 20 years are also no less authentic and valid.
JH,
I have to say that I have not always agree with what you have had to say, but that is the most profound, truthful statement you have ever made.
& Master Paik was actually kind of upset when he saw Master Kim listed as "under" GM Hwang on the lineage chart, he said they all ( HK, KWK, WKL) all considered each other friends & not students of each other, just learning from each other & KWK never really joined, just like you said darried the flag so to speak as a favor to an old friend.
MP
Very interesting discussion. Interestingly, I can trace our schools lineage to KWK from two different branches. It appears KWK beleived what he did to be TSD, but how does my art compare to SBD TSD now and "then". On an aside I went to a WTSDA class in NOVA and did not notice much difference except for class management differences and a lower grasp of grappling concepts (albeit from a very MINIMAL exposure).
Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do
Hi JH,
We have not argued in a while and I hope we don't here.
You said, "None of which was factual. Unfortunately, such hyperbole is common to the Asian cultures and examples of such embellishments and outright fabrications can be found in many, many systems of all nations."
I agree with everything you said. Even in America we accept liars and cheats (Bill Clinton) – but at least we held his accountable via the impeachment proceedings. Once Hwang Kee wanted to play ball in other cultures, like the USA, he should have cleaned up his act and had the common decency to stop the lies, especially in print.
Hwang Kee really has no creditability with me. If I would have known all of this coming up through the ranks I would have surely left. I fully understand why so many Arts look down on TSD. I still honor and respect my instructors for what they taught me because they did not know they were being duped by a con artist. I wish I could be more gracious considering what he accomplished but neither would I knowingly eat a piece a fruit from a poisonous vine just because it looked good today.
Hwang Kee and his prodigies gave us a very incomplete Art - a shallow Art. Pyong Ahn Cho Dan is the exact same from Orange Belt to Grand Master and hopefully now that the truth is out we can re-educate the masses and learn what is really going in the TSD Hyungs so that the next generation can rid themselves of this long held stigma and so that Black Belts can have the opportunity to dig deeper and deeper into these magnificent Hyungs butchered by Hwang Kee.
Tang Soo and God Bless,
Dave Doty
Martial Art Style TSD
I thought it was TKD everyone looked down on, oops my bad
Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do
OK...first off...I can't concur with most of Mr. Doty's post.
I don't believe Hwang Kee purposefully propogated many of the myths told about him. However, I don't believe he was very proactive in curtailing them either (atleast not until he published his History of Moo Duk Kwan). Nonetheless, my not extending diety type worship toward him doesn't mean I see him in some sinister vein nor find a need to vilify him. I see him for who he was. A man, gifted in some aspects, fallable in others.
JH
The art itself, I am reasonably satisfied with; at least it meets my own humble and inexperienced needs.
If I could steal one and only one thing from another art and bring it back to TSD, it would be the level of professionalism I see in the jiu-jitsu instructors I know. There's none of this nonsense where the chain of command gets a mile longer when there's something good being handed out, then everyone disappears when the going gets rough enough that isn't fun to be in charge any more. Sure, when these guys show up making a lot of noise about the respect they deserve, I show respect because I don't want them to break my ribs. But, the seniors I really feel respect for have never needed to demand it. All of the jiu-jitsu senseis I know are like that, and a very small handful of people in Tang Soo Do.
But, to be fair, the senseis I know teach at college martial arts clubs where the school provides facilities and insurance, which is much less nerve-wracking than running a do jang.
Martial Art Style TangSooDo
"Pyong Ahn Cho Dan is the exact same from Orange Belt to Grand Master"
Perhapse that is so from where you learned, but that is not common. If you open your eyes, you might find that there are more people who actually know what you are claiming they do not know. There are many changes,in each form, that occur as you progress in rank.All martial arts are incomplete. I don't care how much you add to them. Nobody ever claimed TSD is complete, or will they ever. I know of nobody who looks down on TSD, but on individual practitioners. But this happens everywhere.
JP
Hi Dave,
here you have my rebuttal to your post, we are discussing or debating not arguing.
"Hwang Kee and his prodigies gave us a very incomplete Art - a shallow Art. Pyong Ahn Cho Dan is the exact same from Orange Belt to Grand Master"
Dave,
I have not seen a Master let alone a Grand Master, perform Pyong Ahn Chodan or any form for that matter like an Orange Belt. The depth of understanding of these forms our Kodanja have is remarkable. I don't know who told you this or who was teaching you or what they did to make you so disenchanted with our art, but if this is how you feel why stay? I'm sure my friend Dave Sommers can help stear you to a reputable Okinawan teacher, where you will be happier.
" and hopefully now that the truth is out we can re-educate the masses and learn what is really going in the TSD Hyungs so that the next generation can rid themselves of this long held stigma and so that Black Belts can have the opportunity to dig deeper and deeper into these magnificent Hyungs..."
Dave
The "truth" has been out for at least as long as I have been training, an my instructors at least have always been willing to put forth information as to the oyo and bunkai, could it have been your instructor who was not up to speed? and not the entire art?
"these magnificent Hyungs butchered by Hwang Kee"
Dave,
Exactly how did the late GM Hwang Kee "Butcher" the forms? I can go to a Shotokan School and see the forms done almost identical to ours. I can watch old JKA films with Nishiyama Sensei and they are the same, So has the JKA "butchered" the forms? perhaps Funikoshi?
enlighten me please.
Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do
Dear BR,
The example I gave on Pyong Ahn Ee Dan is very typical of the "butchering" that I am speaking to. The more I learn, the more I see that the vast majority of things I was told what was going in the Hyung ranged from juvenile to silly to just plan wrong. Another example might be the low/middle double knife hand moves – are we really blocking and a low and middle kick from two opponents as I was taught?
Concerning your remark to my statement, “Pyong Ahn Cho Dan” is the exact same from Orange Belt to Grand Master”. What I was alluding to was not the skill level of performance but deeper knowledge of applications of a technique”. I have trained with many TSD Masters and up to a year ago none of them ever stated, mentioned, or inferred that the techniques taught to an orange belt are any different than what is taught at the Black Belt level. Whereas other Arts teach the same forms have different and advance techniques for the GUP Hyung taught to Black Belts. For instance, when I watch someone like a Master Penfil perform a Hyung, on the surface it is looks very similar to what I was taught but on close examination, there are differences that have application to more advanced applications.
You are very fortunate to be under Master Ferraro, most people in TSD that would not argue that he is one of the giants in TSD today. There is a reason you guys dominate tournaments. I have met him twice and the people I that respect the most in TSD having nothing but the very best to say about him so are very fortunate compared to most of us who trained under people who did not know the advance applications of the GUP hyungs.
Yes, I felt a bit cheated, yes I felt I was duped by a con artist, but now I just feel liberated and very excited in relearning all my GUP Hyungs.
I hope this helps.
Tang Soo and God Bless,
Dave
Martial Art Style TSD
Ahhhhh,
I begin to see the cause of your fustrations, thank you for so eliquently stating your postion and what lead to this, now I can see your postings in a new light.
b
Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do