Redfield Martial Arts Message Board

TANG SOO DO Discussion Board
Start a New Topic 
Author
Comment
Dan Pre-test

I went to a Dan pretest over the weekend in Sacramento, Ca. and I must say I was surprised how good they were and how Master Dixon has raised the testing requirements for his Red belts and Cho Dans. I belong to the Hwa Rang World Tang Soo Do, Federation.

This is the link, http://www.greatwarriorpak.com/

So my question to all of you is, do you think the Dan testing requirements are high enough in your school? This is how the Pre-test went and it was 4 1/2 hours long for 12 people. One testing for third Dan, two for second Dan and the rest for Cho Dan. The test consisted of Hand or SOO GI, two students line up back to back facing opposite direction, and do nine combinations in Korean. Only one at a time, so he would say, " 1.CHOONG DAN SSANG SOO MAKEE / KWAN SOO KONG KYUCK / WEN JIN KONG KYUCK". Each student would do the combinations moving away from each other, then going back to the center and doing number two and so forth; doing each one of them going through them all. Then after the hand combinations starting all over with Kicking or JOK GI combinations. So all of his students knew all Koren terminology as well as the Eight Key Concepts, Ten Articles of Faith, important points that make TSD unique, total of five. Meaning of Moo Duk Kwan and Tang Soo Do, and the meaning of the Fist, Leaves, Berries, Scroll, and the Chinese Characters for Moo and Tang Soo. Also endurance test for 2 min. center punch in horse stance and front kick for 30 sec. Then line them up in two lines and do hand and foot combinations in Korean only, the combinations are ones they know from class, then have them do only hand combination's on their own and then they make up their own, back and forth then also kicking and then hand and foot together. then one steps Il SU Dae Ryun 18 of them and Ho Sin Sool Self Defense, 4 Cross, 4 same side, 4 two hand one wrist, 4 two handed both wrists. For Cho Dan 2 side , and 2 back wrist from behind, 6 angles of knife attack take away and 6 with same take away with follow up. Plus all Hyung's and sparring and breaking with jumping double front kick for Cho Dans and jump back kick for red belts.
I know this is over kill. What do you think?

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Dan Pre-test

Hi Master Reed,

I think that sounds about right for a pre-test, not overkill at all.
Sounds like a good over-all shake down before the big day.

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Re: Dan Pre-test

I think so too.

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Dan Pre-test & funny story

I like the way GM Pak does the tests. My old school used to test about 300 students in 3 hours. 3 rooms of testing going on at one time, but still nothing like we do now. I was with GM Pak last weekend in Philly & tested. mistake.

We were sitting at a restaurant in his hotel (him,his son, me, my daughter & 3 of my students) he asked if we wanted to eat. We all said yes & he & I both had Philly Cheese Steaks. of course. As soon as I took my last bite, he said to go change for my test. Luckily, it only lasted about an hour & a half-2 hours. It just seemed like longer.

Not a pretty scene. Hope everyone got a chuckle on that one.
Master Pistella

Re: Dan Pre-test & funny story

Hi Master Pistella,

Yes two years ago we showed up for the Dan test and the night before he ran us through a work out that was intense, that the next day I was so sore I could hardly walk lol. Are you going to the Battle Of LA in July?


Master Reed

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Dan Pre-test

We have an IL-GUP (pre-test) evaluation the month before the DAN test. If you don't pass the pre-test, you don't test for your black belt and have to wait 6 months for the next one. This evaluation usually last 5-6 hours going over everything.

Martial Art Style TSD

Re: Re: Dan Pre-test

I like the idea of the pre test. Esp if it is done by someone other than your instructor. That way you have a (hopefully) unbiased set of eyes seeing you do things. Now, is the pretest done one on one, or is it in a group setting? May I ask if you are charged for the pretest just like a test (only less of course)? You don't have to say how much, that is fine. When I had tp pretest, there was no charge, & it was done during a gup test. Now that instructor does charge & has a special day just for the pretesting or recertifying black belts.

Master Reed,
No, not coming this year unfortunately. I teach at a day camp & we can't miss any days since it is only 7 weeks. That is my to do for next year, since it would be too hard to fly out right after work then back on Sunday. Master Pak & I were invited to go to the Caribbean in Oct. for a tournament & save up to take my daughter or both of them.
Hope you guys have fun tho,
MP

Re: Dan Pre-test

OK lets livin thinks up a bit.

I always enjoy this tales about Black Belts tests. To me, it just makes me think that these instructors have no idea what these students know or don't know before the "big day".

How about this one - If a students fails a test - they should have never tested in the first place. So I say it is the the instructor that failed the student... not the student failing a test.

On the hand, if you are belt factory - most likely the instructor may not know the students well so I guess 5 hours is needed.

In my instructors school, if you could make it for 4-5 years of his classes you were a Black Belt by anyone standards. Testing was purely ceremonial - the work was already throughly demonstrated over and over and over again.

Tang Soo,
Dave

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Re: Dan Pre-test

Master Pistella,
That's too bad you can't make it but I look forward to seeing you next time.
As far as the pre test I think it is free and I know that if you fail then Master Dickson makes his students wait a year.
When I tested for my black belt I trained for 4 1/2 years so when I walked on the mat I new ever think he asked me but at that time the Korean terminology was not used as much as it is today. Our Master was Korean but he taught in English and Korean and it was never a set way like some who tested for third Dan had to break with a scissor kick face level.


"On the hand, if you are belt factory - most likely the instructor may not know the students well so I guess 5 hours is needed."


The Dan Pre Test is about seeing what you got, seeing if you can go the distance, seeing if the student can cut it or make the grade, the 5 hours is for them not for me or Master Dickson this is a time that they can shine and be the best that they can be, because I feel what we do is special and a lot of hard work and years of training and ultimately knowing yourself and why you do this Martial Art we call Tang Soo Do. I could go on for hours on this but everyone who has ever tested for their Black belt knows it's a special time and should never be taken for granted.

Tang Soo!

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Re: Dan Pre-test

Master Reed,
Thank you. I had a whole tirade on this for Dave, but you are much more eloquent than I. Also, I wanted to know if you knew Vernon Noble? I beleive he trained with Master Lee also, but not sure of the time frame.

Dave D.
I have known your instructor for 21 years. It is good you are that confident in your ability, but have to disagree. 4-5 years in his school would not make you a black belt in everyone's standards. May I ask what has happened to fill you with such negativity? You bash anyone who has joined any federation, and does not see eye to eye with you.
Master Pistella

Re: Re: Re: Dan Pre-test

Yes I do know Vernon Noble but it's been 26 years since I have seen him, and Thank you.


Master Reed

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Dan Pre-test

Whatever Jack - remember he also knows you extremely well also - so be very careful about throwing pebbles.

Someday you will see what a phoney Art TSD is anyway. It started as a fraud in 1945 and was handed down without any real understanding of the Hyung, movement and structure.

Sure, many have come to see this recently and are correcting it. Yes, I was dupped for 3 years - thank God, only 3 years, and someday you will see it too.

Just think for a moment - why is TSD so splintered - why is it so different from Association to Association and school to school. Why is there so much disagreement on technigue and meaning of Hyung - it is because TSD never had it right from it beginning and as an Art may never get it right.

Let me quote one of these most senior people in Tang Soo Do in the USA. He shared with me that there are only two types of people in the TSD, "Marks" and "Players" - so you need to ask yourself... which are you? Personally, I didn't want to be either and thus my long hard journey which has come to an end.

As of June 30th, I will no longer be TSD - so goodbye to all and good luck.

Dave

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Re: Re: Dan Pre-test

Our pre test is done in front of an evaluation board (dans in our school). It is in a group setting and the fee is minimal.

Martial Art Style TSD

Re: Re: Dan Pre-test

There is nothing phony about blocks, kicks, attacks, self defense and bunkai. There are only phony and greedy instructors. And they are out there in EVERY style. Your negativity just contributes to the bad name that people like you give martial arts. I'm sure you will be no different in your "new" style. I for one am glad to see that bad energy leave this board and this style. Nonetheless, it would not be in the true martial spirit if I did not wish you luck in your journey and prayers for growth, maturity, and peace along the way.

Re: Dan Pre-test

David Doty,

Did you decide to go for one of the Okinawan root systems after all?

b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Re: Dan Pre-test

"There is nothing phony about blocks, kicks, attacks, self defense and bunkai. There are only phony and greedy instructors."

Very true Phony. Unfortunately, like you said, there are too many greedy instructors out there. That is the one thing I hate. It also makes the good instructors look bad when one person does something wrong. Like said instructor. Pebbles don't bother me dave. At this point in my life I don't care any more. But, good luck with what you think you will find out there. Most of us have already found it. But of course, that could be the fault of you instructor. Of have you experienced every organization & every variation? I have studied Okinawan, Korean, & Chinese martial arts. There is just as much if not more variation among each of those.

But hey, Good luck, God Bless, & good Bye,
Master Pistella

Re: Dan Pre-test

Ah we in TSD will all miss David Doty,

Here are some of my favorite quotesd and back peddles, what I like to call Doty-isms

"In my instructors school, if you could make it for 4-5 years of his classes you were a Black Belt by anyone standards. Testing was purely ceremonial - the work was already throughly demonstrated over and over and over again."

"Everyone has different gifts and different struggles. I just don't like having to put a square peg into a round hole. GM Byrne of the American Tang Soo Do Association promoted my brother directly to Black Belt from 2nd Gup and he can't even kick above his own knee - on a good day."

"Hwang Kee and his prodigies gave us a very incomplete Art - a shallow Art. Pyong Ahn Cho Dan is the exact same from Orange Belt to Grand Master"

"By the way, I highly recommend Master Rexer's Chil Sung tapes. The proper breathing technique is very clear in his tapes and take special note of his transition hand & foot pivots if you want to understand why he dominates at tournaments. "

" I still honor and respect my instructors for what they taught me because they did not know they were being duped by a con artist."

"So to answer your question directly, Is TSD an effective form of fighting, my answer is that it can provide a solid foundation to becoming a Professional Fighter"

"What I dislike the most is how everyone puts down everyone else. If it is not exactly like my school – it must be substandard."

"I have trained under mainline TSD Masters and Grandmasters and neither I nor anyone else I know has been taught any of the things demonstrated last weekend. "




Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Re: Dan Pre-test

Man are you on a roll!!!

Re: Dan Pre-test

I'm just funnin, and busting Daves Chops, I wish him luck in his new art and hope he will find peace.

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Re: Dan Pre-test

Oh, I know. I really have no bad feeling to him either. I just hope he finds some kind of pyong ahn within himself. All that negative energy is not good for you. He just had the bad luck to fall in with the wrong instructors if you will, & can't get past that when it comes to anyone else in TSD. It's a shame really.
Master P.
p.s. It's still FUNNY

Re: Re: Re: Dan Pre-test

Everyone is responsible for their own emotions. No one else should ever have that much power or control over you to make you feel so bad and so negative. We fell in with, not one, but TWO "bad" TSD instructors. One gave us the phony version for about 10 years. The next one really knew what he was doing but is not mentally healthy. Both were very greedy. We didn't let that stop us - it just made us very cautious and careful about our next CHOICES. We are blessed to have found the right Grandmaster who (1) knows the "real" TSD (plus other styles), (2)is not a psychopath, (3) believes in his art (TSD) and his teachings despite all the phonies out there and (4) is not greedy--at all! IF this makes us "phony" because we stuck with the art we love, then so be it.

This really got off the subject of Dan Pre-Tests, but it's a good thread nonetheless and I wanted to throw in my two cents.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Dan Pre-test

Well Phony, I think you should be proud then. Congrats on getting in with a good instructor. & Yes, being a psychopath is a BAD thing.

Re: Dan Pre-test

Cool -- one of Mr. Doty's responses to something I said made Mr. Redfield's list! I feel ... honored. Somehow. Kinda.

Seriously, though -- Mr. Doty, if you are still reading this board I genuinely hope that you are able to find peace, happiness, and satisfaction in whatever new art you choose to practice. Clearly your past experience with some highly suspect TSD practictioners has poisoned the well for you -- I hope that you are able to leave the negativity it aroused in you behind as you move forward in your life. Best of luck.

Gregg

Martial Art Style TSDMGK

Re: Re: Re: Re: Dan Pre-test

Phoney one (well named)

I know who you are base on four clues; (1) All your communications contain numerical lists (2) In every post you reference your last two Masters (3) All your posts complain about negativity and greed, in the most negative way, and (4) You speak of Bunki as if it’s a martial arts style.

I thought you didn’t visit these sights? If you have lost any more students from the factory, I know were to find them.

Re: Re: Re: Dan Pre-test

This is how I see things. A person trians for 4 to 5 yrs. preparing them selfes for Cho Dan Level if you need a pre test to see if your ready then tou ain't ready. My Instructor always told me when I was ready. I personaly never thought I was ever ready for any test, and that's from white to 2nd Dan Level. I'm this time training myself for my third Dan Level. For this situation like this one I will say yes a pre test is required but only to make final adjustments. I might be wrong it would not be the first time I've wrong It's how I learn from my mistakes. Those of you who know will understand others will think I'm just NUTS!!! LOL LOL LOL
Tang Soo !!!!

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do