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Street Defense Training

Would my learned seniors be willing to explain something that puzzles me? Why do most martial arts schools focus on stranger attack scenarios when they teach self defense techniques? That seems to be by far the best case scenario.

Statistically, I'm much more likely to be attacked by someone I know well enough to allow them inside my guard, or in a situation where it isn't socially and legally acceptable to use force to keep someone from getting close enough to strike first.

Many thanks for your time.

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Street Defense Training

Hey DL,
Good question. I have wondered kind of the same thing. To expand on it, how many instructors teach other than the "ok now you grab me" mindset?

Anyway, on to your question. I actually talk about the statistics regarding the possability an "intimate attack" (just means you know them). The reason most don't, is sexual assault by a relative/friend is a slight tabboo subject. I just finished classes at a day camp, & it was really akward talking with the kids about those things, but we got through it. Actually got alot of possitive feedback from the parents. Only one complained that "now my daughter is not affraid to walk to the store." HHHHMMM I thought that would be a good thing, but hey, what do I know.

Hope that sheds some light on it for you. BTW, how do you teach when you do.

Master P
(shameless plug, finished the first 2 dvds- gun disarms & keychain baton, now working on the book)

Re: Re: Street Defense Training

I'm just outgrowing my dragon (green belt) stage. I don't really have any teaching responsibilities yet. I am starting to think about how I might want to present this differently someday when I have students of my own, but it will also be necessary to figure out how to present the need to do so in a way that doesn't make my seniors turn around and head the other way.

Some programs, particularly RAD, and American Jiu-Jitsu, take more time to talk about threat assessment and appropriate conflict escalation, which might be a good approach to this sensitive topic. But, the philosophy I'm outlining below also has a tinge of bitter self-defense experience that I need to weed out to have any hope of having a productive discussion of acquaintance defense with my seniors.

1)In the typical acquaintance attack scenario, the attacker is going to try to sweet talk himself inside your guard before attacking openly. Step back to establish space as soon as you start feeling uncomfortable with someone. Don't wait for an incontrovertable threat to establish your personal boundaries. Anyone who gives you grief about this does not have your best interests at heart.

2)Depending on the circumstances, give a verbal warning, or make an attempt to descalate the conflict.

3)If the attacker comes back into your space anyway, defend it with appropriate use of force.

Step 1, is in my experience, both the most essential, and the most controversial. Starting a fight with your opponent already inside your guard, in a good position to hit you or to get a restraining hold, is a very dangerous mistake. Trusting your instincts enough to keep people at a safe distance when you feel uncomfortable is essential to successful self-defense.

The catch here is that almost every one of us has invaded someone else's space accidentally, with the best of intentions. What distinguishes the innocent but clueless person with different ideas about personal space from someone who is deliberately obnxious? What distinguishes someone who is merely obnoxious from a serious physical threat?

a) the level of trust between us

b) the way the person approaching me reacts to steps 1 and 2 above. Personally, I'd back off and apologize if I got that reaction. But, reacting appropriately requires the approacher to admit that his/her behavior triggers legitimate threat aversion reflexes that I need to keep myself safe. Triggering threat assessment reflexes is different from presenting a definite threat - it can be merely obnoxious in the same way that startling someone for a laugh is obnoxious. But it's close enough to being a threat to make some people defensive instead of apologetic.

You can see why it's a lot safer to talk about stranger defense...

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Re: Re: Street Defense Training

"it can be merely obnoxious in the same way that startling someone for a laugh is obnoxious."

That has gotten more than one person hurt!

You seem to be off to a good start. Good luck

Re: Re: Re: Re: Street Defense Training

Thank you, Sah Bum Nim.

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Street Defense Training

Dragon Lady,
You are bringing up a very good question here, but the one thing that has to be introduced that far too many instructors don’t bring up is “ATTITUDE”.

When you go to most martial arts school you are told that you will learn defensive tactics, and you are then introduced to the physical movements that are expected to fend off an attacker.

You can train every physical technique known to mankind for 30 years, but if you are not trained in establishing the necessary ATTITUDE you will never successfully defend yourself in any situation.

It needs to be understood that people who come from different places are comfortable at different proximities.

For example: speaking with an acquaintance in a parking lot…

Americans in general are comfortable with casual conversation when the person they are conversing with is two to three feet away from them.

Europeans in the same situation are generally comfortable with one to two feet of separation.

Orientals want three to five feet between them… and so on.

(The distances that I have listed above are general, and may not fit every person from the stated countries.)

It doesn’t matter what makes THEM comfortable. You have to determine what makes you comfortable, and always maintain control of your situation.

When I talk about ATTITUDE, I am discussing your mindset and determination to survive a given situation. It all starts with how you carry yourself. How others read you. Are you projecting a picture of confidence about yourself or are you seen by others as someone who can be had at any given time? How you present yourself will most often be the determining factor as to your being a victim or not.

Those who look for victims don’t Want a fight… they are looking for an easy victory. If you are seen as a “Bob-Cat”, and someone who is willing to cause damage if provoked, the aggressor will keep looking for someone to assault who will be an easier prey.

Teaching defensive tactics should always start with the instructor setting the stage of an attack, and instilling the understanding of how serious this training is, and needs to be in the students mind.

Some students come to class for the exercise, and have the thought process that they are here for some fun and exercise, but I’m never going to be attacked. That sort of thing only happens to other people.

Most schools have you face each other and one person reaches out to hold the lapel of their partner, and then the partner does the technique and everyone thinks that they have learned something.

In my class, when we are training, for example, for grabs. I grab the students with a serious amount of energy behind the grab, and pull them into me, and or to a wall or the ground. The first thing that needs to be understood is; how to roll with the incoming grab, and the power-line of the movement as you are pushed or dragged in one direction or another. What does it feel like to really have someone grab you and cause whiplash as they direct you to where they want you to be? There is so much more to this then; take your hand and place it here, while you take the other hand and place it there, etc.

I teach seminars on this subject, and always find that the students that come in from other schools are shocked when they are grabbed. You have to get your students use to working with a real grab, and real strikes (with a degree of control).

This is just a start…

I can go on this subject for hours…



Yours in Tang Soo Do,

Master Jay S. Penfil

TANG SOO!!!

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Street Defense Training

I have to say that your intesity can be a bit of a shock for a second, Master Penfil!

But you are right - when you are attacked it will not be like in class and you have to be prepared!

Re: Street Defense Training

Thank you Melanie,
I know that I have that effect on those who are new to me, and as you know… I am really just a teddy bear.

It is always my goal to get student to understand the reality that they will face if they are ever confronted with a real assault, regardless of where, when or by whom… that is my bottom line.

My students know their anatomy inside and out (literally), and how to cause the maximum amount of (what’s my favorite word???) TRAUMA!!! (for the other guy).

The last thing that I ever want is that phone call from a student’s family member, telling me about an assault that took place with one of my students, and when the funeral will be held.

A former instructor had two female student (back in 1978ish) who were exiting a local “7 Eleven” convenience store. On their way through the parking lot they were assaulted by a couple of guys that were interested in taking them into their car…

One of the girls delivered a “Field-Goal” style kick directly to the groin of the guy that grabbed her, and she ran back to the store to get help. The other girl delivered the same kick, with the same result, which was that, like the other guy, her assailant went right to the ground, doubled over. The problem was that, unlike the first girl who ran back to the store, the second girl went back to kick her assailant in the head as he laid there in pain. He managed to get a hold of her leg, pulled her to the ground and pistol whipped her to death.

We always make it a point of telling student to do what is necessary, and get away as fast as possible. When technique is implemented with the necessary ATTITUDE behind it, and the rules of “Get Safe, and Get Away” are followed, things work out just fine.

Have you seen the Wesley Snipes movie; “Passenger 57”? In that movie there is a seen where Snipes character is holding the “Bad Guy” against a wall, by the throat, and he says;

“I want to kill you right now”.

The bad guy replies;

“That’s your brain, working without the benefit of intellect”.

You must know how to assess a situation at all times, and work;

“With the benefit of Intellect”, at all times…


Train smart, and stay safe…



Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Re: Street Defense Training

IMHO, you hit the nail on the head-

>Those who look for victims don’t Want a fight… they are >looking for an easy victory. If you are seen as a “Bob-Cat”, >and someone who is willing to cause damage if provoked, the >aggressor will keep looking for someone to assault who will >be an easier prey.

But, do we reward or punish this attitude in our students? I think that some instructors see students who deeply value
what they believe is morally right or factually true as powerful tools to train. But others very much seem to feel that this spirit is something that must be broken in order to establish the instructor's authority. And if that belief can only be broken by convincing the student that she can never win the good fight, they will do it. I myself am very skeptical that that broken spirited student will ever be able to fight effectively, no matter what physical skills she is taught later on. But, I will sometimes find the courage to try if you hit me hard enough, so that I think that Master Penfil has the right approach.

Master Penfil, Master Pistella, Melanie, I really appreciate your time and the thought you've given to my questions. I only wish that I could talk to my own seniors like this.

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Street Defense Training

@Dragonlady

I am sure I am not your senior

In my scholl you can talk about absolutely everything that is on your mind - you just have to find the right moment..and that can be the difficult task....

Re: Re: Street Defense Training

That sounds like a wonderful place to train. I hope that you appreciate it.

There are a few people up here that I trust to handle the unvarnished truth about real problems. But, most of them are
either

a)senior enough that I would feel bad about imposing on their time unless there is a matter of grave concern.

or

b) friends from other schools that I don't see often.

I am hoping that things will get better when I've had more time to get to know people in my new school. I think they'll be more willing to talk to me when they're sure that I can talk about where I am now without mentioning how I got there. But, right now, I feel like the elephant in everyone's closet. I haven't felt this awkward and this lonely since I was a precocious teenage girl in a classroom full of college men. Sometimes you just have to deal with the fact that no one is going to look you in the eye for a couple of years.

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Re: Re: Street Defense Training

Hello everyone! It's been a while since I've posted, but thought I might come on, & add my .02 .
First, Bernard, sorry to hear about your accident. Not sure if you know, or not, but I had a very similar thing happen to me several yrs ago, when I was moving back down here from Georgia. A drunk driver struck me from behind, while changing a flat tire on the interstate in downtown ATL , he actually literally smashed me between my car, & his. I'm very lucky to be alive today. It was a divine intervention, to me. I thank God I'm alive!!!!
Dragon Lady, your Seniors should not look down upon you, if you have questions, and/or concerns. Their people, just like you. They might be better technicians then you right now, but only because they have more experience then you do. The only difference, between them, & you is yrs of practice. Just stick w/ it; and if somone looks down on you for asking a question, maybe you're in the wrong place! Also, I wanted you guys to ck out an article I put together a while ago, it's located here: http://www.angelfire.com/fl5/okinawagojuryu/MA_Get_Hurt.html . It might be a bit eccentric, but it's something to think about.

David

Re: Re: Re: Re: Street Defense Training

Don't get me wrong. My seniors are good people, and generous with their time if I ask straightforward technical questions. But, my previous training is, unfortunately, a rather sensitive subject with certain people. I'm a bit grumpy because I strained one of my adductors trying to catch up on two years of flexibility training in three months after changing schools, but this is really my own **** fault.

So, back to street defense. More than likely, I'm in blue jeans on a cold night, and I haven't stretched. I don't think I've really put enough thought into which of the techniques I've learned I could realistically do from a cold start. It would be really stupid to try one of the high sparring kicks I'm struggling with in class. I might try a couple of kicks to lower targets to keep my opponent away from me, and we do touch on this subject during one steps. If that doesn't work he's probably in close enough for Ho Sin Sool. But, I'm a little nervous about my ability to manage that transition from distance to close fighting. Particularly, I'm not very good at escaping if someone grabs one of my kicks. But, the new school allows a lot more grabbing, so presumably I'll learn how to work with it in due time.

I'm not sure there really is any good way to teach this. I've studied a little jiu-jitsu, and pretty much everything is very literally applicable to street defense. But, it's also so dangerous that you almost never try it on someone who's actively fighting back, which is not very applicable to street defense. How do you train?

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Street Defense Training

When it comes to survival, there are no rules!!! Remember that! You need to eye gouge, bite, knee elbow, combs, & brushes make great weapons, as do pen's. When I used to teach women Self Defense, the key is to shock, scream, & Run. Yell Fire, because then everyone is gonna look. Stomp on feet, kick them in the shin, knee to the groin, & elbows work very good too. You dont need to stand there, & try to fight the guy, you're primary adjective, is escaping w/o harm. Do whatever you need to do so. That's my .02.

David

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Street Defense Training

The "hit and run" strategy seems to be one of the things self defense instructors disagree on the most. The RAD short course program teaches you to run as soon as you can get out of reach, but any of the formal MA programs I've attended will tell you never to turn your back on someone who can still pursue you and fight.

I don't think that either approach is right for every situation. Is this some wacko who's trying to kill me, or a freshman who needs to learn manners? How far away is the nearest safe place? How much of a threat to me is my attacker? How big, how fast, how determined is he? What is my gut feel for his strengths and weaknesses? And mine? Do I see any weapons? Any other attackers? Are there any witnesses? Which side do I think the bystanders will come in on?

I'll admit that broke loose and ran the one time I actually had to fight on the street. Three guys tried to grab me outside one of the frats on campus. I didn't have any formal training at the time, and I don't remember doing anything spectacularly effective, but they let me go once they realized I wasn't an easy mark. It would have been pretty stupid to stand there and fight three men who weren't trying to kill me. But, we were in a crowded area, and I knew that they couldn't afford to attract the kind of attention a prolonged fight would have drawn. If we had been in the middle of nowhere, I might have been better off standing my ground the way they teach it in TSD.

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Street Defense Training

How far away is the nearest safe place?

How much of a threat to me is my attacker?

How big, how fast, how determined is he?

What is my gut feel for his strengths and weaknesses (and mine)?

Do I see any weapons?

Are there any other attackers?

Are there any witnesses? (If YES) Which side do I think the bystanders will come in on?

These are all great questions to have in mind when you are in a threatening situation…
When you choose the strike and run scenario it is always a matter of only running once the assailant is down and has been “sufficient traumatized” to keep him down long enough to make your “get-away”.

In the process of making your “get-away”, as stated… never take your eyes off of the assailant.

Among the most annoying scenes in any movie that depicts the good-guy/girl having finally dropped the evil bad-guy is when the movie calls for the good-guy/girl to immediately turn their back on the downed bad-guy and just sit there as the bad-guy gets back up and comes back for seconds.

I always find myself asking;

Why didn’t they take the bad-guys weapon?

Why have they not put as much space between them and the bad-guy as possible?

The answer is always;

It’s a Movie/TV Show. They need to have the shock value of the bad-guys comeback and final blow…

In real life, I hope that if G-d forbid, you find yourself in such a situation and are successful in overpowering the bad-guy that you will not just sit there and wait for him to regain his consciousness and composure.

I teach my students many “Old Sayings”. One of them is;

“If someone’s mother has to cry, let it be his”.

DragonLady,
I believe that you have the right idea. Keep an open mind when you are training and never take for granted that a given technique will always work the first time.

Every assailant comes to the table with different levels of “Pain-Threshold”, and ability to fight.

It isn’t the same for martial artists today that have to call on their training in an attack situation as it was 20 or 30 years ago. Back then there wasn’t nearly the exposure to martial arts technique in the general public that there is today.

In today’s world, just because YOU have a martial arts background doesn’t mean that you have a serious advantage over your attacker. Even if he hasn’t had “Professional Instruction” in a martial arts school, he may have had enough exposure through movies and his own street-fighting history to be able to deal with whatever you bring with you to the table.

Always treat the situation as if you know that he is more experienced then you are… with that thought in mind, always train to get the first strike in, and be sure of your target areas. Hitting him with everything that you have to offer in an area such as the pectoral muscles will do nothing more then alert him to the fact that you know how to fight back and intend to attempt to hurt him. If he only wanted to hurt you before… now he will be motivated to kill you!!!

1) “Correct Target Acquisition” is as important as your ability to make contact.

2) Training with the mind-set of removing ALL of the “Telegraphing Movements” is essential. If he can see your technique coming before you hit him, you are not going to be successful.

3) Many systems of defensive tactics teach you to make a series of “3” consecutive strikes to cause as much trauma as possible. When you train in Tang Soo Do, or any system that is “Karate-Based”, learning Kyusho Jutsu (Striking Nerve Centers) and Tuite Jutsu (Joint Locking) is crucial.

4) Very few schools that I have worked with have made the addition of reality training to their curriculum. As I have stated many times in the past; the average street-fighter was never taught how to “Pull a Punch”. He just knows how to break stuff (on you). You’re training must have “ATTITUDE” and “SURVIVE at all COSTS” mind-set honing built into the system, or you will be killed the first time out the door.

I would love to discuss these and other training suggestions with you further…
You can contact me directly at:

248-561-5700-Cell
masterjayspenfil@yahoo.com


Yours in Tang Soo Do


Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!

Martial Art Style TANG SOO DO

Re: Street Defense Training

I read thru the whole thread and see some very good posts. I would add something though. Master Penfil put forth ATTITUDE, and that is indeed important. But, ATTITUDE without the added factor of TOTAL COMMITMENT to your response will leave you on the ground.If you don't have total commitment you will be discouraged/ and loose your will to win. Having the proper mental focus to use total commitment during your offensive response is critical to enduring the physical punishment of an actual confrontation. No Mind is a good term to use here, don't think just do, of course once the threat is nullified don't continue , and don't hang around, the whole purpous is to be the one who escapes.

b

Re: Street Defense Training

I agree 100%...

When I discuss "ATTITUDE", I am including your developing as a part of your attitude, the ability to fight through the pain placed on you, and the will to press forward at ALL costs to survive and exit the situation...


Good posting B!!!


Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Re: Street Defense Training



b