Over on the FireEngines.Net forums, they are requesting that negative comments about Code 3 be stopped / trimmed / toned down.

Question for us: is it right or wrong to "bash" a company like Code 3, and seemingly mercilessly?

Are we well-served, or poorly served, by forums such as these, and their potential impact on the people with whom we want to serve us?

If any Code 3 (or company execs) are reading, feel free to chime in!

mjl

Location: Raleigh, NC, USA, Earth

My answer would be...

It depends.

I ran a diecast forum that was growing in size slowly but surely. An issue came up that was actually quite similar - and it made me ask the same question.

I decided I wanted to purvey information, not provide a forum for folks to rail on each other. So, I laid the law down and said 'no more'.

Granted, my forum lost a lot of traffic. But a couple of new posters also appeared that seemed to be unwilling to participate before once the change was made.

Long story short, only you can decide what kind of webmaster you want to be. However, although I'm just a lurker here for the largest part, I certainly appreciate what you're providing us.

Thanks and take care,

Eric McMurtrey (redmac)
www.ticoproject.net

Last week the administator there said no more postings about the code 3 customer service, and no-one posted anything for a few days, as no-one had anything else to say. I thought that was funny.

In another thread over there, someone else said,
" I'm almost afraid to browse ATEV to see what the "doom and gloom" crowd has to say about today's proceedings.", which is a bit hypocritical, considering that board is the board to go to to flame code 3, its pretty tame over here on the AYEV.

Location: London UK

Negative comments are not always a bad thing. This is called "feedback." Fireengines is privately run and held, with no advertisements or requests for donations from its owner. Therefore, he can do any **** thing he likes.

What gets tiresome when reading a Code 3 bashing thread are the repetitive posts about delayed shipping, unanswered phone calls, etc., etc....we all know the problems, and yet some of us still line up, cash in hand. It gets old.

I can't say anything bad about the management of that board, because afterall it's free. A considerable amount of effort on somebody else's part is put into running it for the benefit of all of us. If we don't like what we see (or don't see), then we are free not ti use the resource. Mike invited us to flame away here, but Code 3 and the FDNY aren't as prominent on this board. ATEVers have a somewhat broader horizon where collecting is concerned, IMO. The fact that this isn't a picturebook also means the audience is a bit more....mature, I guess?

DON'T THEY COMMONLY REFER TO THAT AS CENSORSHIP ?.

Firenegines.net is Larry's site. He and Rich have the right to establish their own guidelines, afterall, they are footing the bill.

Given the level of civility, or lack thereof, I can't find fault with their actions. In general, their site is a good resource for information. I'd like to see it remain that way

All of the topics, about quality, details, presumed business practices, etc... have been beaten to death. These discussions are not isolated to the small world of diecast fire engines. Look at any other collector's forum, they all sound the same.

It's a hobby, it's supposed to be fun. If you're not having fun, then why bother?

Constructive criticism is one thing, to beat a dead horse with the same rantings, just in different prose gets rather tiresome. I understand where Larry and Rich are coming from with regard to fostering product ideas for manufacturers to act on. It's also their forum, and have allowed anyone to voice concerns and comments. As it is their forum, the reserve the right to moderate or 'censor'.

And to put it simply - if you don't like the product, company, or the person, don't buy from the company or don't buy the product. It's your choice.

You NEED to REMEMBER the "Relationship" of Said Company and the O/O's of that Board.
Then you'll understand why......

I agree, fireengines.net and code3 still have a "relationship". It really doesn't matter, code3's days are numbered anyway so then we will go through a month or so of topics debating their demise and then their will be none. Maybe then everyone will be happy

I was contemplating legally changing my name to Code 3 Collectibles. But I actually return telephone calls and emails, so that wouldn't be a fair representation to my intended namesake. Bada Boom, Bada Bing !!

I don't believe there needs to be any comment regarding the Fireengine site as it is an outstanding site with a lot of good people frequenting it. Obviously the proprietors have a relationship with Code 3 that they wish to culture and thats fine, it's also beneficial for a lot of people informationwise(don't tell me they haven't, purely by the fact that they go into a tailspin if the negatives re Code 3 become frequent, I would do so the same in their position-- far too much time wasted on Code 3 comments).

As for Code 3 -- (where do we start) -- newsletter - we used to get that as it was issued, then it became infrequent by design, membership -- ya don't get much with that now, do you?, membership truck -- non f*******g existant for want of a better term(I'm tired and lazy at the moment). ALF Century - what a stunner NOT! - even the new issues are called repaints when in reality they RE- DECALLED them. I will also still get the Code 3 models I like as I have always done.

Then we get the ad nauseam comments re My order is late(thanks for reminding me Steve), Code 3 don't answer their e-mails(they don't mention that they sent two hundred in three days and still don't get it that Code 3 is ignoring them as they are pests). We also get the ones that expect everone else to look for items on the net for them when all it takes is a bit of typing on the search area, with a search string that in all probabilities would be easy for a person with a very limited vocabulary or the mental capacity of an ants dick.

Comments in regard to Code 3 are legitimate if they were experienced by you. You can put them anywhere you like if they are factual and happened to you and you only.

Now - the Code 3 Board, I found it enjoyable more often than not, sure it exploded at times and could get nasty at other times but all in all it was fun, yes even for you Chuck(worst thing they ever did was ban you - and your Bus, ROTFLMAO), yes there were more than enough idiots for all on that board but they were our idiots and we enjoyed their rantings and ravings - that's why it was so popular. We all had the odd bad day there, but we were in good company - so in typical Code 3 manner they discover everyone is enjoying themselves and shut it down(it's a joke).

And on it goes........feel free to ad more if you so desire.

Running the above post through my head in an Australian accent.....and LMFAO!!!!!

Quote...
"I agree, fireengines.net and code3 still have a "relationship".

So does Elton John and david Furnish, and at least one of those gets shafted up the butt !!!!

Location: London UK

Larry and Rich have a perfect right to set the ground rules for their forum, just as Mike does here. If you don't like them, don't participate or even lurk. But don't badmouth Larry, Rich or Mike for the decisions they make. All three of them are strong supporters of our hobby, and deserve mountains of credit for what they have done and are doing. It takes a lot of work to moderate a forum, and if you don't believe that, try it some time. As for me, I'd like to offer one huge thank you to all three of them.

As for the bashing of Code 3: that company is showing all the classic signs of a business that is teetering on the brink of insolvency. When a business is in trouble, the first thing to go is the freebies they offer. Next comes customer service, followed by a cheapening of the product. Code 3 in the last year or two has demonstrated all three. The problem is that when you do these things, you become less attractive to your customers, meaning less dollars coming in. So, in response, you go back and cut costs some more, which leads to more customer anger, which leads to fewer dollars, and on and on and on.

I for one am sorry to see this happening. I bought my first Code 3 piece in 1997, and have enjoyed every one I own. No, I'm not a platinum customer . . . I don't buy every repaint or engine/ladder/rescue company made, because I'm interested primarily in the make/model of the apparatus. I wish that Code 3 could go back to what I'd call the glory days of 1999-2003 or thereabouts, with a new mold every quarter, and bring me back to their fold, but I don't see that happening.

Location: SE Virginia

Ray
I think you are entirely right, Larry, Rich and Mike have made a lot of good thinks for fire engine collectors and they have the right to do what they want about anything.
For C3 same I've bought a lot of their models in the past years but in 2006 I've bought only 5/6; I can't remember.Yes it seems they have a problem but if I don't like what they have done, I don't buy and no need talking about what they have to do or what they would have done. We are not Funrise and don't know what's their problems. Surely like all the great
companies: cashflow.

Patrick

Location: Belgium

When you take a step back and look at it from a distance, here is my take.

Code 3 couldn't deal with the criticism--and harsh and crude it was--on their own Board so they shut it down. Upon doing so, they invited us to Fireengines.net to continue posting. It is evident that this was said b/c Larry has a good relationship with them and C3 appreciated that, knowing that non-bash comments aside, there would be a loss of good information amongst collectors.

Now you could argue censorship or say what you want, but we're not paying to keep these boards up or doing the upkeep. The Gatekeepers have the right to restrict content.

BUT, with that said, is that only applicable to Code 3 bashing? What if C3 goes out of business and First Gear and Corgi come of age. They won't please everyone either and ultimately, we'll find reasons to gripe about them.

So my only hope is what's good for one, is good for another, if you're going protect one company, then protect them all. But where do you draw the line??

Having recently gotten screwed by a custom police model maker, I feel that I should have the liberty to post anything derogatory relative to his business practices--not just to vent frustration, but to protect my fellow collectors.

As the saying goes, opinions are like A-holes, everyone's got one. Personally, I think, for better or worse, those all have a right to be heard, but then again, I'm not moderator of any Board.

Happy Collecting.

The "owner/operator(s)" of a board have ever right to set & enforce the rules. If you can't honor(there's a forgotten term) those rules, go elsewhere. There is a difference between free speech & irresponsible/stupid speech.(much forgotten in today's irresponsible world) They aren't saying to stop stating facts, just to stop the name calling, childish ways of stating something, & flat out stupidity.

I personally wish they would create a "Code 3" folder(& limit ALL C3 comments/questions to that folder), so those of us that couldn't care less what happens at/with/to Code 3, don't have to sift through 12 topics(mostly the same) to find 1 non-C3 topic,

I was not banned from the "Other" Board, or their sites. True, I made fun of their principals on their site, and called them a variety of names (Satan, Child Eaters, Lowlifes, ect. ect.) yet I was never banned. What occured was a receipt of an email at 11:30 PM from an assistant of Mr. Rubin sometime in April 2002, and a somewhat foolishly composed threat. Yes, he was ticked at the Satan and Brimstone remarks, due to comments I made on ATEV (not their site), but I never sent an email to any of the principals of the "Other" company to their home computers.

The next day I contacted "Other" company by phone, quit their useless club, and never dealt with that bunch of Monkeys again.

In my opinon, the Principles of the "Other" company do not appreciate comments that do not heap praise them or hold the "Other" company and their products up as the quintesential leader in diecast. They are too thin skinned, and a good number of their mindless followers have the same misguided sense of self worth. Profit is their God, and I refused to be a disiple of their religon.

Amen. LOL

well, MY nose isn't up code 3's butt.

the truth hurts and it will continue to do so, wherever they may run, until the matter is rectified or they bite the big one, whichever comes first.

believe me, if there was anything GOOD to say, i wouldn't be the first or only one to say it.

its called freedom of speech, baby.

don't like it? don't read it.

My error Chuck - humble apologies.....banned sounds better.

Steve...try speaking it as you breathe through your nose, should get it about right...LOL. That Hollywood has a lot to answer for...oh well!!

GC1, no offence taken.

There is nothing wrong with cricism if it is constructive. There is plenty of evidence that Code 3 is not the same as it was when it first started out. They did something in the line of fire apparatus models that no-one else did. And it was a good thing.
But customer service is what it is all about and when you get the run-around for a simple question it can really turn people off. That's what is happening now and Code 3 will pay for it, unfortunately.
Perhaps it's time to pull in the reins and start over with something simple and build back the confidence and assurance of service that we once saw. Barring that, there is always the other guys who are doing an outstanding job of providing collectible appratus models for us to buy...and you can get them through reputable dealers who will answer the phone!

While I never received an return e-mail from Code 3, I never really had a "customer service" issue with them. My issues were with pieces that were just plain poorly done.(grossly out of scale, basic shape way off(or both), lying about what happened, not admitting a mistake, not fixing what was pointed out before production(& yes they fixed the "tiller duals" but still messed up the rig on scale, big time), & etc)

A lot of what has been complained about recently, I have "missed" because I have not been buying them, & they haven't produced a piece I would have purchased in over a year anyway. The ALF Century & Seagrave tiller were the last 2 items I had any interest in(in multiples besides!), & they were botched. From what has been posted, & what I saw first hand after seeing the 2 rigs mentioned, they have become very disinterested in what the customer base has to say, & think. They have a hard core group that will buy anything with their name & not care about it's OVER ALL quality, or how much they "take away" from the "club," so why should they care?. The "bottom line" is still met. Trouble is, little by little, that hard core group seems to be shrinking more & more, tired of either gross errors, poor service, or both. Whether it's "Code 3's" fault, or "Fun Rise's" doing, it will eventually hurt them to the point of slowly disappearing, unless corrected. The trouble there is, by then, the ones that "count" corporately will have made their cut & won't really care. Only those involved in the lower end of the business(customer service, dealers, manufacturing, etc) will get hurt by loss of business & jobs(& obviously are already, by the down sizing of employment) It's the modern way of business. I don't know about other areas, but here, it's not uncommon to hear about a business closing "over night," with employees showing to work & having none, without warning. They suffer, the customers suffer, & the suites count their money & walk away.

Oh well... I live by the old values. If a business wants my money, they earn it. If they let me down, I go elsewhere...... & have.

Larry and Rich can run and moderate their website anyhow they wish -- I think we can all agree on that. Whether or not their special "relationship" with Code 3 is driving their decision to have a heavier hand in moderating negative Code 3 posts, it's anybody's guess. Does anyone even know what this alledged relationship is all about? I'm sure some folks have their own ideas about this. But again, like most stuff posted on the net in discussion boards like this -- everything is SPECULATION.

Is Code 3 guilty of poor customer service? Absolutely. What company these days isn't. I feel that if they are operating in the public arena engaged in business and making money, they can and should be criticized.

However, what makes me incredibly nervous are those individuals who -- without concrete evidence and speaking solely on speculation -- make comments about a company's financial health, profitability, etc.

Now I'm not a lawyer, but even I can see that comments to that effect -- as seamingly innocent as they are -- can and do have legal impact in our world. As a host of a discussion board, it's nothing that I'd want to flirt with.

Just my buck-ninty-nine.

Larry and Rich can run their site their way and the issue of a special relationship with C3 is irrelevant (and denied by them I note).

The key is it gives ATEV a niche. I like and visit both boards and that is why.