Hi Gang -

Just quickly, I pretty much gave up the hobby and posting after I received my Hiway 61 GMC and Chevy pumpers. They are my crown jewels. BUT - I still stop by once in a while to check on youz guyz...to make sure everyone is okay... This board definately grows on you like a family.

So anyway, onto my post -

Concerning the California wild fires, do you think it is remotely possible to engineer and engage a fast response Super Pumper System like the NYFD had in order to knock these fires down at their start?

I'm just sort of brain-storming here.

I don't know much about California, but if they could pemanently pipe something like 8 foot conduits under high pressure (on demand) from the Pacific ocean with switchable gates to route the water to the area where it is needed, then attach to specialized hydrants, and connect them to several SPS's, would that not be effective?

Of coarse, this would cost big bucks but isn't that being paid every year with the current plan of action?

Food for thought... I'm curious of your feed back.

I hope you all are well,

Jeff

That's a fascintating concept. They (CalFIRE?)should definitley look into it. Here's another one that I was wondering about:

Why can't we put a few hundred thousand tons of dry chemical into orbit, deployed in by of those MIRV- tipped ICBM's that we supposedly don't need anymmore? Take out the plutonium, and replace it with super-concentrated FF agent.

We could have the "warheads" make a reentry when needed, targeting the wildfire and bursting a few hundred feet over the ground. That might cut down on jumpers and ground crews.

One more thing, do you use the all-natural approach of compost and manure? Or, are you high-tech, using hydroponics to grow your stuff?

I live just at the base of the foothills of the Sierra Nevada in Central California -- from my upstairs porch I can sometimes watch the smoke and planes from wildfires (but so far this year, no major blazes in our area). Calfire in our area pushes hard for a 200 foot clear zone around homes in the urban/wildland interface. Have been watching tv films of the Tahoe fire -- most of those burned homes look like there was no clear zone to speak of.... In our area there are lots of foothill homes with pine trees or eucaluptus right next to the house (might as well pour gasoline on the place before evacuating!).

Nice to hear from you Steve!

I used to have more respect for you and did not expect a reply like the one you posted above.

The concept of piping water from the Pacific is not a new idea, but distribution of such is the problem.

Just pulling your leg.

Jeff,

Just a few items to think about:

1) You'll need a bunch of high pressure pumping stations, both at the shore and along the way to keep any pressure at all, especially in the mountains. Remember, you're pumping water uphill the whole way.

This means engineers to run and maintain it. Since you're not generating income, where will the funding for this ongoing cost come from?

2) Based on the sheer number of pipes, the tree-huggers will go apesh@t. The will do everything possible to stop that many large trenches from being built.

3) Gotta check to see if the adverse effects of salt water will kill off anything that survives a fire.

4) The sheer cost of burying the pipes, especially in the mountains (pipe and construction daamge, notwithstanding) will be tremendous. It's not just one pipe, but many up and down the state.

5) Using salt water will have corrosive effects on all of the equipment (hoses, apparatus, tools, etc) used.

Maybe it would be better to consider it on a limited basis first and then look at the feasibility of whether or not it can be expanded.

My thought is that is will be too cost prohibitive and no-one will want to deal with the destruction caused by building the system.

Hope this helps.

Tom

You might get enough water at one particular point but what do you do at the end of the line. You would have to cover every square inch of territory to make sure there were no gaps.
Wildfires are not like fires in buildings. They tend to go where ever the wind and territory take them. We don't have the kind of terrain or cover that they do in California but I can tell you from experience that you could not protect every piece of ground quick enough. Wildfires spread very rapidly, especially up-hill and can change direction in a heartbeat. You can spread engines and tankers around because there are enough of them but SPS units? How many do you think you would need? The cost would be stupendous in just obtainnig them, not to mention the upkeep and cost of running them. From what I have seen of the area, maybe part of the solution is that houses should just plain not be built where they are.

Well, I'm an open minded guy, and I heard Brit Hume on Fox News blaming a lot of this on the "environmentalists," specifically the Sierra Club, because they consistently oppose the construction of logging roads to allow the clearing out of brush, dead wood, etc. And God forbid you should mention "clearcutting" in their presence.

I hear him, but I also blame the developers who insist on building communities out of what were once wildlands at a breakneck pace.

Now, I've been around various environmental debates for a long time, and I've dealt directly with my share of enviro-nazis. Most of the front line people are totally uncompromising. However, I also realize that Fox news isn't exactly impartial in its reporting.

I think that the environuts either have to accept that human encroachment is eventually going to occur, so they either have to figure out how to live with that or they need to get the hell out of the way.

Even though this fire appears to be caused by human activity, wild fires will still occur no matter what we do to prevent them. It's just Nature's way, and some of these tree-huggers need to get their arms around that fact.

Steve: I guess that I can be called an environmentalist, since I've studied, written and published on various aspects of the environment (but mainly in South America) for over forty years -- and my wife has been a Sierra Club board member in the past. And I've worked as an archaeologist in the Sierra Nevada foothills for many years. So it continues to amaze me when I see new homes being built in the hills, with absolutely NO clear zone around them. And then the homeowners expect that the local fire crew (the local news in Fresno tonight highlighted the Mariposa County fire department, whose NEWEST engine is over twenty years old, and whose volunteer force has declined from over 300 twenty years ago to 88 today) will risk their lives to save their place.

A good clear zone (and proper construction materials and design) will do more to reduce fire losses in the interface zone than any SPS system!

Okay - this is a good thing!!

We're pulling togeather as a team and providing our views, and I have read all of your replies.

It appears that cost is the major obsticle, with the environmental groups coming in a close second. But I ask you how much is spent in the battle every year when these fire storms occure?

1. (Tom G.) You are correct about your concern with salt water, however a deluge of such for a short period will not kill the vegitation (and in a few months may enhance it).

2. (Tom G.) You are also correct that salt water will damage equipment, unless rinsed via clear water every day or so.

3. (Tom G.) I agree that a test area should be constucted.

4. (Tom G.) Pump stations would be inactive until the alarm is sounded. Maintenance costs would be minor.

5. (Tom G.) I currently do not have a solution to the environmentist groups opinion, but I feel that this issue can be resolved.

6. (Chariots of Fire) I am unfamilure with the landscape in the California hills. On most TV News broadcasts, I see paved roads in the residential areas but I also am aware of the unpaved roads in the wilderness areas. However, the SPS concept is not out of the line of thought. The example of the old FDNY SPS is intended to be a model rather than actual deployment. Try to imagine a fleet of Oshkosh 8WD with an unlimited water supply via a branched Pacific Ocean pipeline to quickly respond to specialized hot spots, while the pipeline itself provides a type of sprinkler system.

7. (James Kus) I agree that clear zones can help yet it seems that wind blown embers are a major problem, and most certainly fire proof construction is necessary. However, it is my opinion that if people chose to live is these high fire risk areas, then they should be paying MUCH higher local taxes in order to provide for adiquite fire protection.


Folks, the whole idea of this post is to take a look at how things are being done in these wild fire areas, and come up with scarios and economical solutions for the long term. I scratch my head and wonder when I see NEWS broadcasts showing nearly 50 fire trucks lined up, helicopters pathetically dropping water on what seems like a hopeless effort, and ground crews slowly chopping away yard by yard in odrer to douse the remaining embers.

There has to be a much better way both economically and resposively to deal with this. If we are paying millions of dollars every year to put these out dated methods in operation, then it seems fit to explore viable and long term cost efficant alternatives.

Please continue your thoughts on this post. Togeather, maybe we can find a solution. After all, ATEV is a GREAT bunch of folks with a lot to offer.


Thanks,

Jeff

What the heck. We may as well talk about this, there isn't much else going on where toy fire trucks are concerned.

Jeff: two additional thoughts.

About twenty years ago I visited an apartment complex in the hills above San Jose (Silicon Valley area) -- the buildings were on a ridgeline, backing up against a wildland area. In addition to metal roofs and stucco construction, the local government had mandated that they have a heavyduty fire pump system, drafting out of the swiming pools, with large monitors above the roofs. Don't know if they ever used the system, but it looked impressive....

Also -- re clear zones and construction -- I have a friend who has been building his own house at the top of a hill overlooking the upper San Joaquin River -- about a 2000 foot slope below his place to the river. There is clear evidence that the slope has been burned over a number of times in the historic period. Not only does he clear the brush on the hillside below his place for several hundred feet, but he has put ceramic tile on that side of the house and has a heavily insulated metal roof. He's been building the house himself (for well over a decade), but it is the best example that I have seen of a building designed to withstand fire. And there are no trees to speak of within a hundred feet of the house. I've watched several videos of the Tahoe and Ridgecrest fires tonight (the latter is where the DC10 almost crashed yesterday) -- I'm still amazed at the shots of houses burning with heavy forest directly adjacent....

Speaking of wildfire solutions:

http://cms.firehouse.com/content/article/article.jsp?sectionId=4&id=55283

Location: Raleigh, NC, USA, Earth

What's wrong with the owners of houses in these areas being more responsible and having them put in sprinkler systems around their properties, on their roofs etc. We had huge fires here 25 yrs ago....100% of people who evacuated lost their homes...100% of people who stayed saved their homes by doing basic things like hosing gutters to wet leaves in them, putting out spot fires around their homes and in them. Simply saying that if people continue to build in areas that are ravaged by fire then they should be more accountable...it's like having a smoke alarm in your house isn't it? The rest of society should not be burdened by the cost of these situations..

Jeff: We're talking a huge area, here. The Florida landscape is flat. So is our area to some extent with a lot of small deep kettle holes mixed in. But where these fires are occurring is in very steep and hilly terrain. Houses are built on hillsides with close vegetation. The chapparell is extremely explosive in nature and is the worst kind of vegetation for wildfire. Add 40 mph winds and relative humidity of 10% or less and you can imagine the heat and power generated. Any kind of stationary system would be immediately overrun (sprinklers) by crown fire. With the kind of innovative minds there are in California I think if large pipelines and SPS systems could work they would have begun to impliment them by now.

"What's wrong with the owners of houses in these areas being more responsible and having them put in sprinkler systems around their properties, on their roofs etc...."

Bingo.

The key word in this whole discourse is "Wild." If people insist on living so close to nature, they have to be prepared for what nature dishes out.

Does anyone recall the Vietnamese-born architect who built his home in a congested area of the Oakland-Berkeley hills?

He far exceeded the local building codes by installing a ceramic tiles roof, stucco over his exterior, heat resistant shutters over his windows, clearing his land, installing an enclosed diesel generator, and finally a pump fed curtain spray system around his house, hooked up to his swimming pool.

When the 1991 conflagration swept through the neighborhood , his house was the only one that sustained no fire damage. In fact, it was the only one left standing. Hmmm. I wonder how he managed that?

Maybe it was because he anticipated the threat, and took the appropriate steps to mitigate that threat?

Steve,

You beat me to the punch. I was going to bring up the house in Oakland. That photo of his house left standing left a permanent impression in my mind. I can see it clear as day.

Until my visits to LA over the past 2 years I never really got how steep the terrain is. It is amazing. I also got to witness a fire from about 20 miles away. It was impressive. I also spent the afternoon with the guys from LA City Station 88 in the heavy equipment department. They helped me get a better understanding of what has been done and what can be done.

Jeff

Location: PA

I agree with GC1.

When I lived out west, the taxpayers built logging roads, and the foresters rented land at bargin prices (as low as $1 per acre), cut trees, and left a mess for taxpayers to deal with. I know, because I worked for a firm that cleaned up (paid for by government, and not the timber firms).

Homeowners who put a half million into a rural forest or hillside home, should have the brains to install the best in fire prevention materials, have at least a short term water dousing system, and do the upkeep to insure their home is not a tinderbox. Its the underpaid and volunteer firefighters who die protecting their investment.

You all are terrific!

I wish to thank Tom G (on the post near the top) for a clever way of itemizing his thoughts. That works for me too.


In replying to my recent post:


1. (Steve McGuire) You are correct... there is nothing substantially new going on unless one is into early 1900 era models.

2. (James Kus) I read your recent post carefully. You have added to this post that insulated metal roofs protect from falling embers. VERY GOOD INFO. Clearing dry brush can be certainly helpful. The San Jose government had the right idea by mandating pools be ulilized for drfting in a roof top monitor solution, but think about it... It seems to me the water would run out quickly.

3. (GC1) Good info, Thanks!

4. (Chariots of Fire) I hold the very highest respect for you. You do well in describing the facts of a wildfire and that is good stuff, but this post is about finding a solution. For some reason I still think that some sort of quick response SPS will work, perhaps with a shield of water... I don't know...
In regard to innovative minds in California, they are only halted by politics.

5. (Steve McGuire) Ceramic tiles and stucco with insulated window shutters - better yet fire proof insulation all around the structure. Perhaps a CBS basement as well. Exellent! That works.


The whole idea of this post is to think as a team. We all have great imaginations or we wouldn't be reading this or collecting fire trucks.

Let's throw some more ideas out here and toss them around. I don't see any harm in that. Do you?

But how did I not know that Chuck would get involved here!