The last person I would ever get to do a seminar is Jay Penfill

Martial Art Style TSD

Very interesting discussion. Interestingly, I can trace our schools lineage to KWK from two different branches. It appears KWK beleived what he did to be TSD, but how does my art compare to SBD TSD now and "then". On an aside I went to a WTSDA class in NOVA and did not notice much difference except for class management differences and a lower grasp of grappling concepts (albeit from a very MINIMAL exposure).

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Hi JH,

We have not argued in a while and I hope we don't here.

You said, "None of which was factual. Unfortunately, such hyperbole is common to the Asian cultures and examples of such embellishments and outright fabrications can be found in many, many systems of all nations."

I agree with everything you said. Even in America we accept liars and cheats (Bill Clinton) – but at least we held his accountable via the impeachment proceedings. Once Hwang Kee wanted to play ball in other cultures, like the USA, he should have cleaned up his act and had the common decency to stop the lies, especially in print.

Hwang Kee really has no creditability with me. If I would have known all of this coming up through the ranks I would have surely left. I fully understand why so many Arts look down on TSD. I still honor and respect my instructors for what they taught me because they did not know they were being duped by a con artist. I wish I could be more gracious considering what he accomplished but neither would I knowingly eat a piece a fruit from a poisonous vine just because it looked good today.

Hwang Kee and his prodigies gave us a very incomplete Art - a shallow Art. Pyong Ahn Cho Dan is the exact same from Orange Belt to Grand Master and hopefully now that the truth is out we can re-educate the masses and learn what is really going in the TSD Hyungs so that the next generation can rid themselves of this long held stigma and so that Black Belts can have the opportunity to dig deeper and deeper into these magnificent Hyungs butchered by Hwang Kee.

Tang Soo and God Bless,
Dave Doty

Martial Art Style TSD

I thought it was TKD everyone looked down on, oops my bad

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

OK...first off...I can't concur with most of Mr. Doty's post.

I don't believe Hwang Kee purposefully propogated many of the myths told about him. However, I don't believe he was very proactive in curtailing them either (atleast not until he published his History of Moo Duk Kwan). Nonetheless, my not extending diety type worship toward him doesn't mean I see him in some sinister vein nor find a need to vilify him. I see him for who he was. A man, gifted in some aspects, fallable in others.

JH

"Pyong Ahn Cho Dan is the exact same from Orange Belt to Grand Master"
Perhapse that is so from where you learned, but that is not common. If you open your eyes, you might find that there are more people who actually know what you are claiming they do not know. There are many changes,in each form, that occur as you progress in rank.All martial arts are incomplete. I don't care how much you add to them. Nobody ever claimed TSD is complete, or will they ever. I know of nobody who looks down on TSD, but on individual practitioners. But this happens everywhere.
JP

Hi Dave,
here you have my rebuttal to your post, we are discussing or debating not arguing.


"Hwang Kee and his prodigies gave us a very incomplete Art - a shallow Art. Pyong Ahn Cho Dan is the exact same from Orange Belt to Grand Master"

Dave,
I have not seen a Master let alone a Grand Master, perform Pyong Ahn Chodan or any form for that matter like an Orange Belt. The depth of understanding of these forms our Kodanja have is remarkable. I don't know who told you this or who was teaching you or what they did to make you so disenchanted with our art, but if this is how you feel why stay? I'm sure my friend Dave Sommers can help stear you to a reputable Okinawan teacher, where you will be happier.

" and hopefully now that the truth is out we can re-educate the masses and learn what is really going in the TSD Hyungs so that the next generation can rid themselves of this long held stigma and so that Black Belts can have the opportunity to dig deeper and deeper into these magnificent Hyungs..."

Dave
The "truth" has been out for at least as long as I have been training, an my instructors at least have always been willing to put forth information as to the oyo and bunkai, could it have been your instructor who was not up to speed? and not the entire art?

"these magnificent Hyungs butchered by Hwang Kee"

Dave,
Exactly how did the late GM Hwang Kee "Butcher" the forms? I can go to a Shotokan School and see the forms done almost identical to ours. I can watch old JKA films with Nishiyama Sensei and they are the same, So has the JKA "butchered" the forms? perhaps Funikoshi?

enlighten me please.

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do

Dear BR,

The example I gave on Pyong Ahn Ee Dan is very typical of the "butchering" that I am speaking to. The more I learn, the more I see that the vast majority of things I was told what was going in the Hyung ranged from juvenile to silly to just plan wrong. Another example might be the low/middle double knife hand moves – are we really blocking and a low and middle kick from two opponents as I was taught?

Concerning your remark to my statement, “Pyong Ahn Cho Dan” is the exact same from Orange Belt to Grand Master”. What I was alluding to was not the skill level of performance but deeper knowledge of applications of a technique”. I have trained with many TSD Masters and up to a year ago none of them ever stated, mentioned, or inferred that the techniques taught to an orange belt are any different than what is taught at the Black Belt level. Whereas other Arts teach the same forms have different and advance techniques for the GUP Hyung taught to Black Belts. For instance, when I watch someone like a Master Penfil perform a Hyung, on the surface it is looks very similar to what I was taught but on close examination, there are differences that have application to more advanced applications.

You are very fortunate to be under Master Ferraro, most people in TSD that would not argue that he is one of the giants in TSD today. There is a reason you guys dominate tournaments. I have met him twice and the people I that respect the most in TSD having nothing but the very best to say about him so are very fortunate compared to most of us who trained under people who did not know the advance applications of the GUP hyungs.

Yes, I felt a bit cheated, yes I felt I was duped by a con artist, but now I just feel liberated and very excited in relearning all my GUP Hyungs.

I hope this helps.

Tang Soo and God Bless,
Dave

Martial Art Style TSD

Ahhhhh,
I begin to see the cause of your fustrations, thank you for so eliquently stating your postion and what lead to this, now I can see your postings in a new light.


b

Martial Art Style Tang Soo Do