I don't mind repaints, be they from Code 3, First Gear, Corgi, or whatever. I buy what I like, skip what I don't. But I think Code 3 is guilty of over hyping their products. Don't advertise "new" when it's just the "next release" of an existing mold. I can't get overly excited about a model, from any company, just because it has been tweaked a bit here and there.

Location: Baltimore

"Speaking of wasting money on tooling.
2006 Christmas release, A early 90's older Pierce Dash, Only 1 release for that tooling.

And how about the Jack Daniels E-One Ladder
again 1 single release for that tooling.

Also how about the Jacksonville Tanker again
only 1 release plus the collector club".

...What about the ESU units for NYPD & Port? When else have they used those molds??. Seems kinda hypocritical to me - on the one hand you guys argue that it costs way too much money to make new molds for only a few pieces - which I agree. But then they do it any way. So obviously, the new tooling costs are not as much as you say they are. Especially the NYPD International Saulsbury ESV - which hasn't been used on any other model since it was made in September 2003.

Likewise, if they say they need to maximize use of their molds, why do they always just stop producing a certain type of vehicle, never to produce it again? It seems like you would maximize your profit by continuing to produce similar items BY DIFFERENT departments indefinitely. Why no more crash trucks? Why no more ambulances of any kind (aside from the Chicago PD and Chicago Fire Scuba)? There are many more ambulances, crash trucks, and other aerials/engines that can be released from existing molds, but they are dropped from future production for no apparent reason. And again, if they weren't so greedy, they would have settled for less profit on certain pieces and made them anyway, like the expanding the police line into cruisers and other special vehicles. With the quality that Code 3 produces WHEN IT WANTS TO, the police line had the potential to blow current police producers out of the water. But again, they took the easy way out. Someone mentioned being proud to buy pieces from an American company like code 3. Well lets see, everything is made in China, so thats out. Fired all the customer service reps..so thats out. The only part of american company would be marketing, warehousing, and R&D. Not something I would exactly be proud about saying its American. Finally, speaking of customer service, they still haven't hired anyone? Every other week we keep hearing about how they are still working on it...exactly how hard is it to hire a CS rep, (or hire one of the ones back who you fired)? Why is it so complicated? Just do it. If it means instead of making 300k profit at the end of the year, you make 270k profit, then you make 270k profit.

ps - whatever happened to all the new models/repaints we were going to see when they acquired the Franklin mint molds? We haven't seen jack out of that. And whatever happened to the smithsonian and movie lines? They no longer show up as links to the fire line. I'd be interested in knowing financially how those lines did, and like other people previously posted, did they suck money and resources away from the fire line, leading to some of the problems we see today.

Location: The twilight zone

Excellent point above about police releases. I was planning to mention that to John Dunkel. Several departments in northern NJ and NY use the same ESU truck and REP as NYPD, and their markings are a lot better looking. Newark, for example. The company that makes the REP has several examples on their website. Also, the FDNY's Tactical rescues are almost identical to the ESU DSV - wonder why Code 3 never made one, since it would require minimal retooling and since their goal, at least for awhile, appeared to be to produce the entire FDNY in 1:64th scale.

Location: Woodbridge, VA

Rescue 131's quote
But I think Code 3 is guilty of over hyping their products. Don't advertise "new" when it's just the "next release" of an existing mold"

ISN'T THAT THE TRUTH

Weegee.....

I stand corrected. I thought I was tough on detail, but after reading your correction to my post about the Hamilton rig, I went to their website to see the detail pix of the actual rig. I see EXACTLY what you mean. I wouldn't know unless someone (like yourself) pointed that out to me. Thanks for the info. I concurr it is a nice repaint--close to accurate, but not so much!

Thanks again

Such over simplification by some. If they think it is so "easy",why don't they start a company and produce what everybody is screaming for and take the business away from Code 3. I'm not defending Code 3 as I don't agree with what they have done but there is more to it than meets the eye and it ain't as "easy" as everybody thinks it is.

COde 3 is funny. We waited for an aerial DP for years, then they tried to ty in the star wars with fire with the skywalker ranch thing-big bust. They use repaints over and over, but no 1/64 pierce or philly squirt. They do a piece then a no brainer like finish off a boston set or chicago and they don't but use the reapint in some who cares dept. We were promised the lax crash truck years ago with them even showing the prototype, then nothing. Code 3 is too far oof of waht we the collector want. I am an adult and i used to eagerely await the frdiay update everyweek. Then i couldn't care less. Now, i only check time to time. Haven't bought a code 3 for a while unless it is a $50 dp.

FYI, John A is not John Antonelli even though we both grew up in Boston and live in Northern VA.

FYI, I did all the pre pro work on the Hamilton. WE made the changes we could and there are some we could not and some actually happened after we did the pics. Folks, I and C3 gave it our best shot. There are mold constraints, technology constraints, and time constraints. I did the best I could for you all. Criticism to me.

Limer,
I don't believe the Hamilton comment was towards you.One says it's accurate.The other says nope AND Proves it.
The BIG thing as it appears to me is....IF it is a COLLECTIBLE Replica,Make it ACCURATE...Or DO NOT advertise it as such.
When the item is Not Even Close,Then it's a TOY!!!You say Tomato,He says Tahmoto...6 of one,Half-Dozen of the other...
Ass-Kissing and Brown-nosing...What's the difference?? I'm sure someone can/will answer that..LOL

Hey CYPANE, calm down and focus on your grammer and spelling !! These are not big words that you are trying to spell.

Location: Mississauga Ontario

I know its not directed at me. Life is good!

"Seems that C-3 will never catch a break. They started with repaints from day one and nobody seemed to care..why the big hub-bub now?"

FIRST OF ALL, IF YOU RECALL, WHEN THEY STARTED, THE PRICES WERE BETWEEN $19.99 AND $24.99. AND YES THERE WERE MANY REPAINTS, BUT PAYING 24.99 FOR A REPAINT VS 44.99 OR MORE FOR A REPAINT IS A BIG DIFFERENCE. THE PRICE OF THE MODEL IS SUPPOSED TO REFLECT THE COST - SO THE MORE OF THE SAME MODELS YOU HAVE, THE LOWER THE COST SHOULD BE. SINCE IT DOESN'T COST ANYTHING MORE TO REPAINT 1 MODEL THAN 100 MODELS OF THE SAME, YOUR FUTURE SELLING PRICE OF EACH PIECE SHOULD BE LESS, NOT MORE.

SECOND, I CAN SEE IF A MOLD IS USED FOR SEVERAL DIFFERENT DEPARTMENTS, WITH DIFFERENT PAINT SCHEMES. BUT ITS A DIFFERENT STORY TO HAVE THE SAME DEPARTMENT, SAME MOLD, AND SAME COLOR, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF A DIFFERENT UNIT ASSIGNMENT NUMBER. YOU DON'T SEE THE DIECAST CAR MANUFACTURERS, FOR EXAMPLE DOING THE ILLINOIS STATE POLICE CHARGER, CAR 15-41, AND THEN ANOTHER ILLINOIS STATE POLICE CHARGER, CAR 15-42, OH..LETS NOT FORGET THE STATE POLICE HAS DISTRICTS - SO EACH CAR COULD BE REPEATED BY DISTRICT - 4-41, 4-42...ETC ETC...ITS THE EXACT SAME THING AS CHANGING ENGINE ASSIGNMENTS.

"Its a business, it only makes sense that they would want to make as much money as possible from each mold produced. Re-paints are a great way to get mileage out of molds. They need to make money in order to produce NEW molds!"

AGREED - BUT LIKE I SAID, WHY IS IT THAT THEY STOPPED PRODUCING AMBULANCES, RESCUES, TILLERS, AND OTHER ENGINE MOLDS THAT COULD EASILLY HAVE BEEN FROM DIFFERENT DEPARTMENTS. ALL THAT WOULD BE NEED WOULD BE THE DECALS AND PAINT CHANGES...BUT LIKE EVERYTHING, THEY ALWAYS SUDDENLY STOP PRODUCING A CERTAIN MOLD WITH NO EXPLAINATION. AND AS HAS BEEN ALREADY MENTIONED, WHY ARE THERE SEVERAL OTHER MOLDS THAT THEY HAVE ONLY PRODUCED 1 OR 2 PIECES FROM, NEVER TO BE HEARD FROM AGAIN. YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS - DON'T SAY THEY CAN'T MAKE A SPECIFIC PIECE BECAUSE THEY CAN'T REPEAT THE MOLD, AND THEN HAVE THEM PRODUCE MOLDS THAT THEY ONLY USE ONCE. BEING A HYPOCRITE ONLY HURTS YOUR ARGUMENT.

"Look at what Franklin Mint models cost. It ain't that easy or cheap to change a mold to produce an accurate model for ever release made"

NEARLY ALL FM MODELS ARE FICTITIOUS AND ARE NOT MEANT FOR ANY DEPARTMENT. AS SUCH, THEY ARE GEARED MORE TOWARDS A COLLECTOR OF GENERAL APPARATUS WHO ADMIRES THEM FOR THEIR OVERALL REPRESENTATION. IN ADDITION, THEY ARE A HELL OF A LOT BIGGER THAN CODE 3 AND ARE BETTER CONSTRUCTED. I OWN NEARLY ALL THE FM FIRE COLLECTION, AND THEY GET THE MOST COMPLIMENTS OF MY COLLECTION. NEVER ANY MISSING OR BROKEN PIECES, DECALS THAT ARE MISALIGNED...ETC ETC. ALTHOUGH THE DIAMOND PLATES ARE IMPROVING, THEY ARE STILL SECOND TO FM IN TERMS OF QUALITY OF CONSTRUCTION.

"If you have something constructive to contribute, please address your concerns to the proper folks. They are NOT hard to get ahold of."

PLEASE SHOW ME ON THE CODE 3 WEBSITE WHERE JOHN DUNCANS EMAIL ADDRESS OR PHONE NUMBER ARE? OR WHERE THERE IS A PHONE NUMBER FOR CUSTOMER SERVICE? THE BEST THING CODE 3 HAD WAS WHEN THEY HAD THE LIVE CHAT WITH SCOTT AND ARNIE. AT LEAST YOU COULD HAVE A SOMEWHAT REASONABLE CONVERSATION WITH THEM AND GET SOMEWHAT OF A STRAIGHT ANSWER. I PERSONALLY HAVE SENT REPEATED EMAILS, REQUESTS, QUESTIONS ABOUT THINGS, AND I KNOW OTHERS HAVE AS WELL, GOING BACK TO THE ORIGINAL HEYDAYS OF CODE 3 AND NEVER RECEIVED A RESPONSE. I HAVEN'T KNOWN ANYBODY WHO HAS RECEIVED A LEGITIMATE (NONCANNED, NONBLOW-OFF, NON 'THANKS FOR YOUR SUGGESTION, WE WILL TAKE IT UNDER ADVISEMENT' RESPONSE).

"Such over simplification by some. If they think it is so "easy",why don't they start a company and produce what everybody is screaming for and take the business away from Code 3. I'm not defending Code 3 as I don't agree with what they have done but there is more to it than meets the eye and it ain't as "easy" as everybody thinks it is. "

NEVER SAID IT WAS EASY, BUT I TELL YOU WHAT, I THINK THERE ARE SEVERAL COLLECTORS ON THIS BOARD WHO WOULD DO AS JUST AS GOOD A JOB IF NOT BETTER IF THEY WERE TO TRADE PLACES WITH JOHN. JUST BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE THE CAPITAL RIGHT NOW IS IRRELEVANT. IF GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY, THINGS WOULD BE BETTER. PLEASE ENLIGHTEN US ON WHAT WE HAVE OVERSIMPLIFIED, AND WHAT MORE TO IT THAN MEETS THE EYE THERE IS.

THEY HAVE BEEN "LOOKING INTO" CUSTOMER SERVICE FOR HOW MANY MONTHS? THEY HAVE SAID THEY WOULD BRING BACK THE BULLETIN BOARD/CHAT FOR HOW MANY MONTHS? EVERY OTHER WEEK IT IS "WE ARE STILL LOOKING INTO THESE ISSUES AND WE WILL LET YOU KNOW ASAP". WELL NOT TO "OVERSIMPLIFY" THINGS AGAIN, BUT BOTH OF THOSE 2 ISSUES COULD BE RESOLVED OVERNIGHT. HIRE SOMEONE FOR CUSTOMER SERVICE. DONE. HIRE AN OUTSIDE COMPANY TO DEVELOP A MORE SECURE BULLETIN BOARD AREA TO PREVENT HACKERS AND THE PROBLEMS WITH RECKLESS/THREATENING POSTINGS THAT GOT THE OLD BOARD CLOSED DOWN. NEITHER OF THOSE 2 ISSUES IS A MAJOR UNDERTAKING IN TODAYS HIGH-TECH WORLD.

Location: The twilight zone

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Well said.

I also miss the detailed "history" you used to get with each truck--either from the website or the back side of the COA that came with the truck. They used to tell you what year the truck represented, what other units the truck is housed with, where the location is. I find you just don't get that detailed info anymore unless it's FDNY.

I always thought that information like that would have been great in (similar to) a baseball card format--Pic of REAL rig on the front, details on the back.

i guess we are all spoiled by the ammount of diecast releases there are today .no one complained when corgi redid thier alf tiller rig over and over.it was the only game in town then . we still have a choice to by or not to buy. you buy what you like and save money on those you dont .if and when they fold up, we will realize what we had.

Location: BUFFALO NY

Yes what we had, Code 3 use to be awesome!
they had great releases, great people
Scott, Orlando, and great customer service.
But the last 3 years they went down tubes
I spent thousands and thousands of dollars
on code 3 betweeen 1997 to 2004, I think I
spent only around $400 in the last 4 years.
If Code 3 closes in 2009, NO BIG DEAL.

TILLERMAN . I HAVE SPENT ABOUT 2 OR 3 THOUSAND A YEAR AND I HAVE NO REGRETS

Location: BUFFALO NY

It's like anything else, if you don't like what they're putting out then don't buy them. Yeah, I'd like to see an Arrow XT, a newly-designed Quantum, a Spartan or Hahn, etc., something different, but until then we'll just have to wait.

It will take a little time for Code 3 to get back to running up to full speed again.

The TWH models are very nice, and VERY expensive, but there's a big difference between Code 3 and TWH. We're still able to afford the Code 3's, though maybe we don't buy as many as in years past when they were less expensive. I know I fit into that category.

I don't like repaints either but that's what we're getting, along with some newly-tooled parts on those repaints. It's a start.

I know, I know, a year ago I was preaching "doom and gloom" for Code 3, along with a few others, after not seeing them up at FDIC, but since Dunkel took over it just may be a new lease on life for them. Only time will tell.

The only thing different since John
took over is false hope and BS.
I don't see were the Yonkers Eagle Is 90%new
tooling
Also I don't like C3 braging about that it's
unheard of keeping prices the same for the Philly DP
it's a Repaint
I will not be renewing my memembership. Your not getting nothing for it except a worthless card, and you can get the releases at any dealer for the same discount prices.
I hear John was taking pictures of old apparatus in
junk yards in New York. Maybe we will get a 1968
Chevy step van from FDNY. That's what happens
when you hire someone who's use to making
John Deeres and other farm equipment models.

2 Code 3 Ladders + 1 CC3 Memembership=1 TWH release

So how long are the nay sayers going to kick a a "dead" horse(repaints, same moulds, cost to much, add infinitum)???? It seems to be never ending. When is enough, enough????

I would venture to say either when it gets fixed OR when the Drain is Empty...

What I have read for the most part in this thread is the ranting and raving of a bunch of sore sports who despite their badmouthing on this forum and others still have not gotten their own way and with each episode of diarhea of the mouth they get a little more upset and nothing or no one will ever actually please them because if you stuck them in front of a camera right now they would have a hard time telling you what they really want in 1000 words or less.

No more repaints - ever!!!!! It ain't gonna happen d-heads. I don't care who makes it - they will use that mold as many times as they can to maximize the money earned from that mold. It is a fact of life - Deal With IT!!!!

TWH is about to release some new models with some very high quality design work and high quality moldings along with some great paint work and graphics for a very high price compared to what any of you have been paying up until now. Guess What? When they release the second version of the same Stryker or Pierce engine with different paint, graphics and some tooling modifications you will be getting a $189.00 repaint. So how is that so different and acceptable when the Code 3 versions are not?

I can understand why management got rid of the phone and changed their methods - they were sick and tired of listening to your complaints and threats. I have had the opportunity to use the customer service system. They acknowledged my complaint within an hour and got back to me within 24 hours. They resolved the problem within two days to my satisfaction. I wish they had a phone number but they don't and the current system will work.

Location: Oswego, NY

So, we are "d-heads" and we are "a bunch of sore sports who despite their badmouthing on this forum and others still have not gotten their own way and with each episode of diarhea of the mouth"? Well..I guess you are the self appointed king of diecast now Doug, above everyone else because we question things that don't seem logical or make sense. Since you are the know it all..PUT UP OR SHUT UP. Answer the questions which have been repeatedly addressed to Code 3 both pre and post John Duncan and on this board several times. Again, take the time to read each individual post and formulate a logical response, since we would like to know. These questions directly relate to your defense, and various others defense of Code 3. The question is listed before the various texts:

Question - Why is Code 3 producing repaints/retools of only certain specific items when it seems convenient for their argument (ie Chicago Diamond Plates, FDNY..etc? Where are all the other ambulances, squads, trucks, and various engines from older molds that have not been revisited (retooled/repainted) in years?

Question - Why will they not make specific pieces - ala Chicago Squadzilla, because they don't have other depts to make similar pieces from, but they have other molds where they did the EXACT same things..aka nypd units, tankers...

Question - Why is it possible for other diecast companies both police and fire, to produce only 1 piece of a particular mold for each department ? You don't see multiple police cars of the same mold with just a different unit number. Yes they change departments, but thats not the same thing. I haven't seen a whole lot (a few maybe, not a lot though) of Corgi or other diecast where they produce the exact same engine for a department and only change the engine assignment/house #. They may do the same mold for 5 departments, but again, not the same thing as the same department...aka 3 chicago diamond plate luvernes and FDNY.


Prior responses

1). they will use that mold as many times as they can to maximize the money earned from that mold. It is a fact of life - Deal With IT!!!! "Its a business, it only makes sense that they would want to make as much money as possible from each mold produced. Re-paints are a great way to get mileage out of molds. They need to make money in order to produce NEW molds!"

2). No more repaints - ever!!!!! It ain't gonna happen d-heads. I don't care who makes it - they will use that mold as many times as they can to maximize the money earned from that mold. It is a fact of life - Deal With IT!!!!

AGREED - BUT LIKE I SAID, WHY IS IT THAT THEY STOPPED PRODUCING AMBULANCES, RESCUES, TILLERS, AND OTHER ENGINE MOLDS THAT COULD EASILLY HAVE BEEN FROM DIFFERENT DEPARTMENTS. ALL THAT WOULD BE NEED WOULD BE THE DECALS AND PAINT CHANGES...BUT LIKE EVERYTHING, THEY ALWAYS SUDDENLY STOP PRODUCING A CERTAIN MOLD WITH NO EXPLAINATION. AND AS HAS BEEN ALREADY MENTIONED, WHY ARE THERE SEVERAL OTHER MOLDS THAT THEY HAVE ONLY PRODUCED 1 OR 2 PIECES FROM, NEVER TO BE HEARD FROM AGAIN. YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS - DON'T SAY THEY CAN'T MAKE A SPECIFIC PIECE BECAUSE THEY CAN'T REPEAT THE MOLD, AND THEN HAVE THEM PRODUCE MOLDS THAT THEY ONLY USE ONCE. BEING A HYPOCRITE ONLY HURTS YOUR ARGUMENT.

SECOND, I CAN SEE IF A MOLD IS USED FOR SEVERAL DIFFERENT DEPARTMENTS, WITH DIFFERENT PAINT SCHEMES. BUT ITS A DIFFERENT STORY TO HAVE THE SAME DEPARTMENT, SAME MOLD, AND SAME COLOR, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF A DIFFERENT UNIT ASSIGNMENT NUMBER. YOU DON'T SEE THE DIECAST CAR MANUFACTURERS, FOR EXAMPLE DOING THE ILLINOIS STATE POLICE CHARGER, CAR 15-41, AND THEN ANOTHER ILLINOIS STATE POLICE CHARGER, CAR 15-42, OH..LETS NOT FORGET THE STATE POLICE HAS DISTRICTS - SO EACH CAR COULD BE REPEATED BY DISTRICT - 4-41, 4-42...ETC ETC...ITS THE EXACT SAME THING AS CHANGING ENGINE ASSIGNMENTS.

So Doug, we are all us dheads are all eagerly awaiting your response, since you are the king of diecast. Or are you a hyprocrite just like Code 3 and can't defend your argument? So please put your usual thought into answering the above question.

Location: The twilight zone

I hate to say it, but I could see the moderator(s) pulling the plug on this board due to some of the responses, the flaming, etc., that are going on. Remember what happened to the Code 3 Messageboard??? Same thing was happening over there that's happening right here on this board. We have a good thing. Let's not ruin it by petty arguing over piddly squat, to put it nicely.

I realize that there are some disappointed Code 3 collectors on this board, but there's more to life than collecting toy fire trucks. Get a grip! By reading a few of the posts to this thread and from other threads you'd think some of the people on here that post and reply to this board have nothing else to live for in life except to collect model fire trucks. Very sad.

All I can suggest is keep attempting to contact John Dunkel and tell him what you'd like to see Code 3 produce, that you're tired of the repaints or customer service that's not up to par. It's as simple as that.

To do a Quote from earlier on in the thread.......
~~~~~~"AND THE HITS KEEP COMING"~~~~~~

Check this out and MAYBE you will Understand the "HITS"!!!

http://www.modelfiretrucks.net/smf/index.php?topic=6134.0

And this is acceptable With NO Negativity Expected???
And the list gets bigger...